Monday, February 20, 2012

Nationalism, Patriotism, and Politics

Nationalism, Patriotism, and Politics
Idolatry or God’s Way?
I remain simply astounded at the response to my posts on nationalism, patriotism, and idolatry. I am convinced the Spirit is actively doing a work of grace in many, many hearts. Just so everyone knows where I am in my journey I want to share. But do not think that your perspective has to mirror mine, or that you will be bullied if you are in a different place. But it would be edifying for brothers and sisters to sharpen each other’s iron.
I was brought up in a middle class home that went to a Lutheran church. I was baptized as an infant and I went for three years to catechism after which I was confirmed as a member. But I was still lost. But I was raised in a common patriotic family who watched the 4th of July parade and voted Republican. We always displayed a flag on the fourth.
But in 1975 I was born again. My life was changed and I was delivered from drugs and immorality and violence. But one thing that did not change was my patriotic perspective. I never questioned it and since all the new believers I met were also patriotic Americans it just seemed like a non-issue. And even after I became a pastor I held patriotic services on the fourth of July weekend. I can remember pledging allegiance to the flag on that Sunday as well as singing a couple patriotic songs. We were good American Christians.
During those years I can remember listening to radio and television people who held “conservative” political perspectives. Some would castigate the “liberals” and mock and berate them. And since being a politically active conservative seemed to be the evangelical way, I never questioned the Biblical nature of such verbiage.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait I can remember the patriotic pitch rising dramatically, and even in evangelical churches there was a frothing of the mouth concerning the coming war. The emotions ran high, and if someone even questioned all it they were considered liberal or at least some 60’s hippie throwback. And I can remember listening to the radio and television updates about how the coalition (America) was winning the war. Even the phrase “shock and awe” was a rallying cry!
It was around that time that men like Rush Limbaugh began what we now call talk radio and now talk television. And since we were all patriotic Americans who revered the Constitution and the founding fathers, we didn’t notice the caustic and self righteous rhetoric. Mocking liberals and demeaning jokes about President Clinton were commonplace and accepted even among preachers. The snowball got bigger and bigger and the evangelical church became very smug and self assured.
But in the late 1990’s something began to eat at my insides. I could not put my foot on it but something just seemed wrong with all the saber rattling and incendiary language. I would speak with my best friend about it and he too was feeling uncomfortable. One day he asked me for Scriptural support for a violent overthrow of the American government if we disagreed with its tax policy. I thought he had lost it!
I told him there was absolutely no Scriptural grounds for violence over money, none. Then he asked me why then would God support the Revolutionary War? And where was Scriptural support for that war? I was stunned. I had never even considered the Scriptural validity of the Revolutionary War. In the crowd I ran with that would have been considered treasonous just to ask such a question. In some circles it still is. I did a study of the New Testament just to allow the Spirit to guide me without any preconceived attitudes. It soon became obvious, I had been sold a bill of goods.
Our allegiance is to Christ and Christ alone. To pledge allegiance to any earthly government is a form of spiritual treason. It does not mean you are not saved or that you do not love the Lord Jesus, but it does mean you are blind to that form of open idolatry. If we are to be honest, it is indefensible. But I was blind and I had to repent. And I would suffer criticism and even verbal persecution from some who were my friends. It was surprising how personally believers take even a discussion in this realm.
And then there was the battle of self righteousness and any air of superiority. Whenever the Spirit guides me into a truth that substantially changes the way I think and behave, the devil and my flesh immediately urge me to feel superior to others with whom I had agree not too long ago. Isn’t the flesh such a diabolical and clever enemy? I still need to guard against that kind of feeling.
And in November of 2000 I cast my last vote for George Bush. And during the last 12 years I have examined many things concerning politics and the New Testament. While we are called to obey the authorities, we are never called to join with them. Politics is an unholy alliance of the saved and the unsaved. And when we resort to the ballot box, we dilute the gospel. The world sees us involved in changing the outside of the cup and subsequently they are not confronted with the eternal aspect of the gospel message. They see us as a moral religion not a faith of redemption.
So now I ask for your thoughts. This thread is open for testimonies, perspectives, and a general discussion.

72 comments:

Robin said...

Hi, Rick - I've been challenged by your political posts. And you make a lot of sense. I can see where giving allegiance to the country, or a political party, is a form of idolatry. I'm not to the point of wanting to completely give up on it, though. One reason is that we homeschool our children, and the national and state education laws make a big difference for us. People have been jailed here and in other countries, and had their children taken away, because of teaching their children at home, which destroys the reasons for keeping them home to begin with - especially the attempt to teach them God's way. Here's a post I wrote recently, though, about the idea of politics. Visit if you'd like, and tell me what you think! - Thanks, Robin http://musicoftheheart-robin.blogspot.com/2012/01/for-god-and-country.html

Richard Ludwigson Jr said...

Rick, I thank God for His guidance on your journey which is allowing you to share with those of us traveling along behind you. I am challenged daily as I read your thoughts about your journey. I never considered prior to reading your posts about how politics was coming between my soul and God. I am seeing how we limit God by being so involved in politics. God is so good and His plans and timing are perfect. Thank you again, Richard Ludwigson Jr

PS; I am so thankful that God led me here so I could have my eyes opened and my attitude adjusted.

Rick Frueh said...

Good comments Robin and Richard!

Rick Frueh said...

This is a comment from a sister named Kelli who had a problem posting it:

Brother Rick
These last two posts are what we needed to hear. Very few see the deception of the idolatry of nationalism among believers.
I was convicted of this while watching FOX news with their debates and slamming the other party. My dad and I would get into heated discussions as he is a Democrat and I voted Republican. What kind of ministry was this?, certainly not of the Lord but of the flesh.
No longer do I vote as this is a tool of the enemy to work on both sides to manufacture hatred among people and their parties. Since we are not of this world,yes, we are in it,but not of it.
We are to submit to God and resist the devil.
Satan has already been defeated and what more does he want us to do but to get us distracted and occupied with the things of this world.
1 John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Cal said...

I was a christendomite (a pagan wearing a cross) for most of my life and I started finding my identity in conservative politics. I was on track for joining the USMC and fighting for America, the bright and shining city on the hill.

I thank Christ Jesus for saving me, a hating and wretched man driven by false ideas and a lust for pride, from my sins.

It still is shocking. I thought I was a 'christian' for 18 years of my life. How could I have been so deceived. This system of blending the name of the spotless lamb with this blood-churning empire is pure anti-christ.

A quote that chilled me a bit as I read it:
"Patriotism is the religion of hell"

Peace,
Cal

Rick Frueh said...

Wow.

corriee said...

I thank you for this post. I had already decided not to vote in any more elections.Years ago during the
empower America (with Newt) I was so excited...but learned that God is not in these peoples heart. It is the power and money that draws these men to seek public office IMO.
God sets up kings and rulers, and God removes them. This world is run
on His plan, His time. I believe in the providence of God. Such is the story of Queen Esther. So I believe that God will set our next president over this land.
I thank God that we who are His can worship Him together in these studies on the internet.
I pray for our country. Thank You
so much Rick. I have much reading to catch up on the old posts and am looking forward to the post on the power of the resurrection.

Ron said...

I remember being a 39 year old patriot ready to enlist after 9/11. How The Lord has opened my eyes in the last few years.

From time to time when in conversation, I have the opportunity to tell confessing believers that patriotism is idolatry. they look at me with bewilderment.

Keep it up Rick, God is leading to and opening many eyes through your
postings!

Anonymous said...

Hello Rick.
I spent 20 years in a legalistic, self-righteous cult, which mocked true christians, all the while thinking I was a christian. Totally deceived. When it came to an end, I went on a sin-spree, for lack of a better term, completely messed up my marriage, continued drinking even more, and it got worse.
Several years later, it was like running into a brick wall; suddenly it came to me that I was never a christian to begin with. All the time I was thinking I had turned my back on God and it was probably too late.
But it wasn't because God started to show me, and draw me to Christ, and 4 years ago I was born again, saved, a new creature in Christ. How good, and gracious is the Lord that He would have mercy on a miserable sinner such as I.
Coming to this blog has been an eye-opener, and has made me see things that need to be changed in me. I'm glad and thankful the Lord has led you to do this. Even though I'm in Canada, the whole political thing can get weird here too. I had never voted before the year 2004, I think it was, and started voting and now I don't. Which makes me no better than anyone else. But, I feel free, free from that bondage. We belong to His Kingdom now. Sometimes I think we forget.
May God continue to bless you, Rick, and all the praise and glory to Jesus Christ!
Lorena

Rick Frueh said...

What a glorious testimony!!

Rick Frueh said...

From Bob,

Hi Rick,

I am amazed by the numbers of people I meet and read about whose eyes are being opened to these Truths. Patriotism is idolatry. In Hebrews, we read of the faith of Abel, Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Isaac,Jacob and Sarah. "...they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly, if they had been mindful of that COUNTRY from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better COUNTRY, that is, a heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." Ch. 11, vs.13-16.

In the book of Acts, we read the account of how the Israelites rejected Moses, "...and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt." Ch.7, vs. 39. There are,today, some, who are pointing people to the Truth, that this world is not our home. Yet the masses (churchianity) have their hearts 'turned back again into Egypt' (the world).

Isaiah tells us that "All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and WORTHLESS." Ch.40 vs.17.

As born from above, followers of the way, we belong now to another nation; "a holy nation", 1 Peter 2:9.

Let God be true, but every man a liar.

Paul said...

Amen! If we would be like Jesus, we would abide by what He said to Pilate in Jn 18:36, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." If we are not of the world's kingdom, we can't be part of it's system. I appreciate your straightforward apology. God bless, Paul

Randy said...

HI Rick,
I too was saved in 1975 and my life turned 180 degreees. I also was very patriotic, had previously served 6 years in the Navy. Then in the year 2000 I began to see many deceptions about this country, politics and then the church. My wife and I stayed in another town about 60 miles away in a motel for our anniversary and we went to the local charismatic megachurch there, this was 3 days after 9/11. The pastor said in a very strong way the he didn't want anyone saying this was the judgement of God, but a bunch of radical terrorists that did this to America. We were very grieved in our spirits, and felt very strange there and could not wait to get out. I also agree 100% it is wrong to pledge the allegiance to any country, would Jesus have pledged his allegiance to Israel when we was on earth? Our kingdom is not of this earth, our kingdom is the kingdom of God.

Anonymous said...

FOR A NATION THAT PROCLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN NATION & SUPPORTS ABORTION, GAY MARRIAGES & ALSO OTHER UNGODLY IDEAS. WE PROCLAIM ON OUR MONEY WE TRUST IN GOD & ARE ONE NATION UNDER GOD. HOW CAN WE SAY SUCH THINGS & BELIEVE IT. WE MAY CALL OR SAY WHAT WE WANT, BUT MAY GOD PROCLAIM UNTO US "PROVE IT." GOD "RESISTS" THE PROUD, BUT GIVES "GRACE" TO THE HUMBLE.

Anonymous said...

Anything we put ahead of God, be it church, country, money or even family, becomes our God.

Patrick Heron said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMK0a7Om-s&list=UUg4X0OjVHJSiLg-KtDI50pw&index=5&feature=plcp

This video may help elucidate where the USA is at present.

truthkeeper said...

How about this?? The country was founded using moral laws. Over the years people began to proclaim us a Christian country. God more or less stepped back and gave us enough rope to hang ourselves or turn our hearts to Him. The string has played out and His judgement is falling on us for using His name in vain. The snowball has begun rolling down the hill and can not be stopped without the country repenting. Sounds a lot like the book of Jonah!!

Rick Frueh said...

Yes. And the church has followed!

Ron said...

I am not sure where all of you folks are getting your stuff from. I remember God leading the charge during several battles. It was God who parted the red sea and then closed it down around the Egyptians. It was God who led his people into the lands of milk and honey (remember that one). I also believe it was God who divided the 12 tribes and sent them out to form their own nations.

Rick Frueh said...

Yes, I agree. But remember, God did not elect a better Pharoah.

Bill Cotton said...

Brother Rick,

You are absolutely spot on with what the Lord has shown you. As we mature in the Lord and want nothing more than to serve our Lord and King, Jesus many of lifes frivolities fall away and mean nothing. If we are in His Kingdom then we should follow the commands of the King. Amen?

God bless and may the Holy Spirit continually lead and guide you to a closer walk with the Lord!

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with you on patriotic idolatry. As years go by and it's time to elect a "new leader" there is more and more strife between family, friends and co-workers. In 2008, my liberal democrat friends told me to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. I replied that both parties were vile and didn't care about the people they "represented." Now I'm at a loss as who to vote for since I voted 3rd party last election. I got chastised for that because I was throwing away my vote. Now after reading your article and what other teachers have commented on around our country I'm thinking God puts whomever He wants in regardless. Blessings, Noel

Anonymous said...

Rick- How refreshing your comments are, and how truthful. Being a non-voter, and non-participant in the political process in America, I have been telling people these things for years and it has mostly fallen upon deaf ears. It is an inspiration to believe that Christians are finally becoming enlightened as to the truth...for a change.

Anonymous said...

The true American patriot is the antithesis of a loyalist.
yes, I agree with you Rick, I found this the other day, and this also got me to thinking more. I also would say,vote for the lesser evil. Boy what a eye open for me. love this. and now its Jesus amd me. what do you think of this?
The true definition of what an American patriot ACTUALLY IS can be determined only by examining what those men who signed the Declaration of Independence (and their followers) ACTUALLY DID. So, let's learn what a true patriot is by taking a look at what those true patriots actually did.

1. They spoke and wrote profusely and published their beliefs and opinions clearly stating the truth, that their government was tyrannical and guilty of crimes against the liberty of the common man. They openly denounced the government and its agents, not only in print but in public speeches and gatherings. They did this despite great personal risk for doing so. This went on for some time prior to 1775.

2. They conspired, both in secret and later openly, to overthrow and revolt against their government with the aim of throwing it out and establishing a new and different governmental system. In doing this, they were branded as traitors and seditionists by their government... but they did it anyway, despite the risk.

3. Eventually, after their government had fired the first shots, they took up arms AGAINST their government and began killing it's policing agents, who were the armed force enforcing the oppressive dictates of their government.

"In a time when the word “patriotism” has been distorted to mean “an unquestioning support of our government,” Liu and Hanauer have reclaimed patriotism to mean a love for America’s founding principles of freedom, dignity, and equality for all. Theirs is an inspiring vision of true patriotism which is embodied in our Bill of Rights

At The True Patriot Network, our contention is that when you unpack true American patriotism — the idea of country before self — what you discover is a moral framework that goes back to this nation's founding, and that is inherently progressive. Living by such principles as service, stewardship, tolerance, and equality of opportunity, true patriots show that devotion to this nation means working to help America reach its exceptional potential and promise.

Those who would call themselves American patriots need to stand ready to do the same things today that our forefathers did in 1775, and we'd better be ready to be called conspirators, traitors, seditionists and (today's buzzword) terrorists by the government loyalists we oppose.”

Gilbert Eriksen said...

1.) We are fallen creatures... Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

2.) For now Satan holds the principality rights over Planet Earth... which means he can push around politicians, banksters, members of secret societies and other ne'er-do-wells to do his evil will from time to time. The Lord Jesus did not challenge the truth of Satan's principality rights per se (Matthew 4:9) but He did refuse to worship Satan/Lucifer and made it very clear that God alone is to be worshiped... not Satan, not government, not money, not bankster power, not politics. Only God is to be worshiped.

3.) It is the inherent nature of mankind to abuse his fellow man. That tendency multiplies in the wrong direction as government ages. The fallen nature of mankind and the negative influence of Satan compound the potential for evil. The abuse usually starts in secret but eventually erupts out into the public arena. The Christian community is to act as “salt” and “light” in a broken world. “Salt” dries up evil. Light dispels darkness. We are “in the world” but not “of the world”.

4.) Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. (Mark Twain)

Gilbert Eriksen said...

5.) In a democracy or a Republic (either one) the people ultimately are responsible for their government... satanic influences notwithstanding. The Lord told us to "occupy" until He returns (Luke 19:13). Grand jury nullification of errant Federal laws and regulations is a valid principle in law and needs to be restored. States rights with respect to nullification of errant Federal banking, taxation and "health care" law need to be exercised... and are not being used. When the Federal government tries to press the issue in the wrong direction it needs to be brought to heel. The Federal Government must remain the servant of the people. The people are not the servants of the Federal Government. The correct order needs to be restored. Expect that Satan will fight against the rights of individual people in favor of the right of government to be abusive of its people.

6.) Ultimately, there will be no peace on Planet Earth until the Principality Rights of Satan are ended during the Lord's Millennial Kingdom. Until then, evil must be constantly and actively opposed by those who know the Lord (salt and light). Unless evil is opposed, it will grow without limit and lay waste to the souls of men. At no time did the Lord ever promise that the fight against evil would be easy or necessarily always successful. But it is something that we are required to continue doing until He returns... "occupy till I come".

7.) Following the Lord's instruction to "occupy" till He returns is not idolatry as long as God the Father remains your center of your worship. Almighty God is to be worshiped. Almighty government is NOT to be worshiped. That distinction must be clearly maintained in our minds at all times. The correct order is: #1. God, #2. The people, #3. government. That order must always be maintained.

Gilbert Eriksen said...

8.) We need more statesmen and fewer politicians. But statesmen are hard to find.

9.) These words might sound familiar:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

Brother Greg said...

I having been through 2 near death's am of exactaly the same opinion as you. I might be a terrible type, speller and so on but at 57, can still vote but since President Reagen, have none to vote for. I wait on him to me what is next.
By His Grace
Greg Parker
Hobbs NM

gary said...

WE HAVE STRAYED A LONG WAY FROM THE PILGRIMS INTENT AND OUTLINES OF THE FOUNDERS and THE DOCUMENTS THAT BIRTHED THIS ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Perhaps the LORD will once more set this nation's compass on a moral heading. The days are certainly evil at present but nothing is impossible for the LORD GOD.

Joyce said...

Finally....someone who tells it the way it really is supposed to be for Christians! But only a small minority believe and live it....it is called the Narrow Road Way! How few there are that find and walk THAT road. Govt is an evil god to all who trust in it. The truly Godly would NEVER be allowed to even run! The truth hurts those who hate the truth! And for the rest....God shall deal with it in the end.

laura lee said...

The corporation of the United States of America is the 666 beast system instituted by the satanic covenant of the Constitution establishing the corporation which is a satanic system of the 666 beast system. This Christian nation is a KINGDOM nation under God and it's citizens are the saints of Jesus Christ alone under the Kingship of Jesus Christ alone. It is spiritual. This nation was generated by God in the Declaration of Independence to separate from the world system to prepare it's destiny.

What Christians believe today... is a lie from the pits of hell to merge them with Babylon and the 666 beast system so that they lack power to escape the Great Tribulation.

Marc White said...

Rick - bless you dear brother for your courage...we last voted in 92 and have suffered much trial in the church for our stand against the patriotic zealots, even in our own family and children...here's our page on similar posts www.walkworthy.org/politics

Anonymous said...

Totally spot on!!! Many believers have been blind sided the same way, but many are waking up. We are no longer of any nationality once we are born again from above and our allegience changes to the spiritual realm. When we follow God's commandments, we are not only salt and light but we become enemies of the world's system of thinking and doing because it is opposed to God.
This does not mean we have to fight against flesh and blood, but it means we fight against the spiritual enemies of God directing and ruling those who are blinded in this world. That fight is with spiritual weapons that God has provided. It is to free others that are still trapped. It is to glorify God and not man. To extend His kingdom and not the kingdoms of this world.
Remember always, greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world and also There are more for us than against us. We are surrounded by the heavenly host of the armies of God.
Blessings.
Pam

obadiahoutreach.org said...

Hello Rick ...Sir you are so spot on the money it is frightening.But allow me to take it one step futher and then you will really 'offend' fellow Christians. The US government whether you Americans wish to believe it or not is run on Jewish money... more specifically Zionist money.They have bonded themselves to the government using the verse from Gen "Those who curse you I will curse"... so the USA now fights their wars, and you people allowed it. The money spent on these wars alone would bring releif to all of suffering Americans...It is so odd to think that this alliance is between the Christians and the only race on earth who hate Jesus with a passion ....Go figure .

Ken said...

Rick- I completely agree with you. The true followers of Christ have allegiance to One and only One.

You reminded me of Mark Twain's War Prayer.

U.S. Christians have been thoroughly brainwashed into worshiping an ideal, to the point that most don't even yet realize they are empowering the very luciferian order that seeks to ultimately destroy them.

Anonymous said...

We are not able as humans to figure out what we see beyond the veil of patriotism.(yet)But the picture is beginning to become clear. Much of this was intentionally hidden by Yahvah originating in Ezra 4:4 when he allowed the dominant culture to weaken the hands of his people(read scribes)Than the word of Yahvah was morphed to fit into the ensuing cultures. This birthed the term colonization. Note.All of these cultures were also expansive. Ever wonder how Yahvah was to keep his promises to scatter the tribes globally? Ever wonder what is sealed in Rev 7 or what Daniel was told to seal up? Placing this against the backdrop of the one common denominator throughout all of the Indigenous cultures, certain patterns emerge.http://www.bibletribes.org/

killingidols.com said...

I too have a testimony of repenting for voting for GW. Not because God wants us to disconnect, but because of our authority God holds us accountable. The Bible says 'lay hands on no man suddenly, be not a partaker in other men's sins' In a democracy or republic, the people or causes we vote for we 'partake' in. It doesnt give us a right to bury our head in the sand, but it does enhance our responsibility for repentance, accountability, etc...

http://sospression.com/2012/03/09/partaking-in-other-mens-sins-plus-shereenas-new-detroit-leadership-dream/

I also have a blog on the Trayvon Martin issue. The Kingdom of God is not right vs left, its Jesus Christ and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.

Mike said...

Good article, it really makes you think. I agree with you that our calling is to proclaim the gospel to s sinful and fallen world. End of argument.

I have always considered that God allows countries to exist to control the inherent sinful nature of mankind. Without some form of government (good or bad), society as we know it know it would cease to exist and would spiral into anarchy. It is government that keeps the individual's sinful nature in check. If you break the law such as murder, you are punished by he who carries the sword.

According to Romans 13:1 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

However, I don't agree that it is a sin to vote. We are obliged to vote by our government. And because we are told to obey governing authorities then unless the order goes contrary to God's commandments (and I don't believe voting falls into that category), then we must obey.

Titus 3:1 "Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,.."

Let's not fool ourselves, western society exists in its rotten state because God allows it to exist. The world will just keep getting worse and worse. It has all been foretold. Amen

laura said...

Mike,

Leaving Babylon means leaving Babylon. Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto God that which is God's.

Jesus didn't vote.

Jesus is King.

We are in the world not of it. We grow in conviction -- but voting is indeed friendship with the world and enmity against God.

The church doesn't see how to gain power to arise in separation from the world as the Kingdom nation of Jesus Christ as the early church did -- BEFORE THEY BECAME A CORPORATION OF THIS WORLD BY DEGREE IN THE LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES BY APPOINTING DEACONS AND RAISING UP A FLESHLY STRAIN OF BABYLON on the inside of the church.

As you see, Stephen was the first Christian martyr. And his martyrdom opened the floodgates for Satan to tear and rip the church apart and to kill ALL OF THE APOSTLES.

This apostle will stand -- take the dominion -- and release transfiguration glory and release of the fires of Revelation 18 in full dominion in Christ.

Only the 100% supernatural level produces in kind results.

Voting... precludes that.

Moreover, we are under tutors and governors -- the kingdoms of this world -- until we go to the 100% supernatural level and come out from among them thereby rising above them in dominion as was the early church when Ananias and Saphiras were stricken dead. Ie. Before there were deacons.

It takes looking at things from a wholly different perspective than thinking in terms of legalism to restrain the wicked by human means. God is more than enough powerful to smite our enemies before our faces as Deut 28 and the whole of scripture testifies and was manifest in the early church -- when we arise as the heirs of God solely by His Spirit.

These are deep things. But, the art of compromise was something Lot's wife was expert in.

God bless.

laura said...

PS. Romans 13 refers to the Government of the church and the ministers of the gospel. We bear not the Sword in vain and are ministers of God's wrath.

Thinking that scripture refers to Ceasar is a very grave misjudgment.

groovintheblues said...
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groovintheblues said...

When I was younger I was politically active and believed in centre right government, but since then I became totally disillusioned with politicians from all parties decades ago. I despise politics and most politicians for good reason. They are mostly liars with hidden agendas who don’t keep promises made, and don’t represent their constituents. The lesser of two evils is always a bad choice, but what other choice is there when Christians don't stand themselves, or suitably infiltrate main stream parties to influence them from within. The gay movement in New Zealand did exactly that in the NZ Labour Party, and before long when they became government, they legalised prostitution, homosexuality, went on to pass a form of marriage called the Civil Union Bill into law so gays could marry, and then introduced an anti-smacking law to prevent parents from suitably chastising their children DONE ALWAYS IN LOVE, in a biblical way, by allowing them to smack children in a non-violent way and only when necessary. We are talking smacking, not child abuse. We know what Solomon said about physical discipline in Proverbs, so do we believe that, or not. No discipline or inadequate discipline breeds tomorrow generation of anarchists or at the very least, people with no self-discipline. We must be taught discipline to learn to administer self-discipline. Someone must govern the country, which ever country you reside in, but mostly we get to choose between the lesser of two morally bankrupt options. (The lesser of two evils.) I vote for the lesser reluctantly, but my vote really goes to God, and if it comes to a choice between obeying God's law, or man’s law, I will choose God's law, even at the risk of prosecution by human government. If Christians want to change this situation, they need to strategically and covertly infiltrate political parties until they have sufficient numbers to vote for change within that party, whether it be in government of the day, or in their opposition at the time. And yet, because politics is generally such a foul and corrupt business that requires the Christian Politician to work with already corrupted politicians. The challenge then is to try to work with them, without becoming corrupted by them. Politics is like a cesspit, and it is hard to work in a cesspit without getting dirty. So what a dilemma we have. Still, if we sit back and do nothing, what right have we to complain? Steve

groovintheblues said...

When I was younger I was politically active and believed in centre right government, but since then I became totally disillusioned with politicians from all parties decades ago. I despise politics and most politicians for good reason. They are mostly liars with hidden agendas who don’t keep promises made, and don’t represent their constituents. The lesser of two evils is always a bad choice, but what other choice is there when Christians don't stand themselves, or suitably infiltrate main stream parties to influence them from within. The gay movement in New Zealand did exactly that in the NZ Labour Party, and before long when they became government, they legalised prostitution, homosexuality, went on to pass a form of marriage called the Civil Union Bill into law so gays could marry, and then introduced an anti-smacking law to prevent parents from suitably chastising their children DONE ALWAYS IN LOVE, in a biblical way, by allowing them to smack children in a non-violent way and only when necessary. We are talking smacking, not child abuse. We know what Solomon said about physical discipline in Proverbs, so do we believe that, or not. No discipline or inadequate discipline breeds tomorrow generation of anarchists or at the very least, people with no self-discipline. We must be taught discipline to learn to administer self-discipline. Someone must govern the country, which ever country you reside in, but mostly we get to choose between the lesser of two morally bankrupt options. (The lesser of two evils.) I vote for the lesser reluctantly, but my vote really goes to God, and if it comes to a choice between obeying God's law, or man’s law, I will choose God's law, even at the risk of prosecution by human government. If Christians want to change this situation, they need to strategically and covertly infiltrate political parties until they have sufficient numbers to vote for change within that party, whether it be in government of the day, or in their opposition at the time. And yet, because politics is generally such a foul and corrupt business that requires the Christian Politician to work with already corrupted politicians. The challenge then is to try to work with them, without becoming corrupted by them. Politics is like a cesspit, and it is hard to work in a cesspit without getting dirty. So what a dilemma we have. Still, if we sit back and do nothing, what right have we to complain? Steve

Rick Frueh said...

"The challenge then is to try to work with them, without becoming corrupted by them."

The moment you step into a cesspool, you are corrupted.

Anonymous said...

It is amazing the similar paths that the Father is bringing his Children out of Babylon.

I think that the Biblical point of view and pattern that we can see through out scripture is that it is not about the person that is elected or in power, rather it is an issue of the heart of the people that vote to elect the next "President, Prime Minister, or the next School board".

Yes, often times a Righteous Man or Woman, can help turn the people hearts back to God.

Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people.

Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Yet, other times HE uses an Unrighteous ruler or situation to turn the peoples hearts back to Him.

It is not about the "King/President/Government-al person in Power" it is more about the heart of the subjects.

Speaking against an authority that you live or work under, either a boss, mayor, PM or President - it is the same as speaking against God.

Who truly exalts and humbles, who lifts up and puts down leaders. Who placed them over us?

If you read the above verses you'll understand why it is not the ruler that matters, rather it is more those who are ruled that matter the most.

We read in the OT and Paul quotes this verse in Acts 23:3-5 while an identifiable spiritual ruler existed on earth, an earthly high priest not a Pope.

Exodus 22:28 You shall not blaspheme God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

This is a sin, that I have had to repent of more than once. May we become more like David, whose conscience was pierced when He cut the corner of king Saul's garment (1 Sam 24:4-5) . We can see the polar opposite heart in king Saul ( 1 Sam 15:26-28).

Years ago, I was very political, and had the Lord not removed the scales from my eyes, I would probably be very much in midst of the mix.

For me this is where things started to change. I remember listening to talk radio in the summer of 2004, the "conservative radio station" that I listened to had on the Democratic National Convention, I remember the Lord tell me to watch this Man. A state senator from Illinois who was running for US senate. He delivered the Keynote address, that Man is our current President.

Then the same thing in the Fall of 2007, when I first learned that He had entered the Presidential race.

It was during this interim that the Father started moving on my Heart and moving me away from my "polarized political view" on a variety of issues, I might add.

I think far to often, on to many issue's We do not seek the Father's input.

We just go with the flow of what we have learned or what defines us, rather than Who defines us.

In all the election cycles that one has been eligible to vote: How many times have we prayed on how we are to Vote, and How many times have we just voted along party or political lines?

How many things in our live's do we stop to question, and Seek the Lord about them?

I know where the foundations of my political views come from, My Dad. Then I added to that. While I respect my Dad and His wonderful and Godly wisdom, I still have to seek the heart of my Heavenly Father, not just about politics, but I am learning about on so many other issues that have defined me.

-Yoni

Dom said...

I have had some of the same kind of thoughts especially regarding the pledge and the flag. However you seem to be saying you don't vote any longer?

Anonymous said...

The Word is clear that it is Christ how rules over the kings of the earth. When nations have followed in revolution, it has often led to an extremely diabolic rule: communist China & communist Soviet Union. On the other hand, the Lord does dipose kings and rule over kingdoms. What we refer to as the American Revolution was not a revolution in that our forefathers did not remove an earthly ruler from his earthly throne, nor did we unseat his kingdom. It was a war of separation and one which I do believe was by divine appointment. This did not make America the incarnation of Christ, nor did Jesus step down out of Heaven and become an American citizen. We are a nation of people who are in desparate need of the Gospel.

As for the Conservative Right, I have voted Republican since I was elgible to vote (Reagan), but nothing shuts people out of the Kingdom of Christ more than the self-righteous hatred that spews forth from those of us (people) who are defending Christ's throne by sword. It is the verbal, and not so verbal, pulling up of the wheat and tares that always leads to the ruin of our witness and violence, and goes against the very foundation of our nation; the separation of church and state, as put forward through Roger Williams in 'The Bloody Tenant' and wisely based on the parable of our Lord.

As for voting; 'Render unto Ceasers that which is Ceasers'. Scripture compels us to be good citizens, which includes honoring the king and obeying his laws when they do not conflict with God's laws. Our king is 'We The People' and a represenative form of government that is based upon our participation. This participation does not require the verbal slaying of those who hold different political views which is ungodly. It is a silent ballot. One might even consider whether the withdrawl from participation is an act of revolution for it is the unseating of the earthly rule of our nation. But I do agree that as Christians we are to have only one true allegiance and that is to Jesus Christ. 'He who lives by the sword dies by the sword' and we know that the sword of the mouth is the most dangerous of all.

May the Lord Jesus Christ help us all in these difficult times, for all that glitters is not gold. Okay, that's not a Biblical reference, but it is true. The Kingdom of Heaven is among us, may we be rich in the Love and mercy of Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God.

Victor said...

Funny Rick... I posted this a couple hrs ago to Mike Huckabee,

Mike... and HPAC
Where is the power of God made known? Certainly not exclusive to some theocracy! But rather... In The Lords faithful chosen... But who are they? Where are they? And where does the USA/politico fit into the "Big Picture".
Mike H. I challenge you to introspect in all true humility. What are your/our motives and in who/what are they based? This is NOT a sermonette as you might suppose! But rather a potential game changing prophetic moment. "SEEK first the kingdom of God and His RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things will be added unto you" " If my people called by my name....... "AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS then I will hear from heaven and heal their land"(emphasis added)
"The surest way to defeat an enemy is to make him your ally" and in this case I agree.
You see Mr. Huckabee Gods power is very near MIA! The reason is "God will not be mocked". Please continue to operate in the political arena. You are chosen for this. But please consider this one thing... "will He find any faithful". (pray right now for the Lords confirmation,wisdom and guidance. And I agree with that in Jesus name amen).
Some correlation???

Victor

Camille said...

Rick,

It sounds like you are trying to already live in Heaven, once the battle with evil is over. The problem with that is the reality that you are not there yet (as evidenced by your writing a blog) and neither are we done with the fight of evil (as evidenced by the fact that we are still in the world, which is evil, and that the Lord has not chosen to take us out of it yet).

How can you say that voting is an unholy alliance between this evil world and our Godly spiritual nature?! With that logic, us living in a physical body is also an unholy alliance. Yet God has chosen this, for a time, and for good (selah)! And for His purposes.

It sounds like you are confusing your struggles here, making it sound like standing up for your beliefs in a political arena as being evil and entering into an unholy alliance (inferring that it is not something that God would have you do). You have an issue with war, with violence. It sounds like you have a fundamental issue with evil. An issue with evil is good. An issue with war is shooting beyond that mark (in your context). War is what the righteous do because they see there is something worth fighting for. God Himself, by His very nature is one who stands against, because He stands FOR something. If you stand against anything, you are waring (conversely) against something. It sounds like you cannot reconcile why God, a truly pure and Holy God could allow or condone His creation to exist in a world or a body that is tainted, or even evil. Part of this is a paradox, and part of it is the mystery of God that cannot be fully understood (though, I would encourage everyone to continue to seek God for understanding in these areas).

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.... was it good or was it bad? Why would He put a tree in the garden that had the Knowledge of Evil even before we are completely sure that there was evil present? Why would God form a new creation and then deliberately put this in the middle? These are the questions to be asking, much more than asking whether war and standing up for one's beliefs within our government is what God would have us do.

Did God condone America entering into a war to stop Hitler? And if not, then you would be saying that God condoned Hitler to continue extermination until the day he died. I suppose Stalin should not have been stopped, or Bin Laden, or Hussein. It depends upon how you have interpreted the Bible and upon which passages you rely upon solely, since it is obviously not from the Bible as a whole (in context) from which you base your conclusions.

Should we then not fight to breathe every time, but give into gravity? Should we cultivate the ground so that we can eat? Should we lounge in bed and not fight to get out? If we are not to fight, then what do you advocate (or suggest) that we do? How far are you willing to take this logic?

Paul says that we war not against flesh, but against principalities. He told us what we were waring against, he did NOT tell us that we were not warring! That's insane. It's impossible!

If you choose not to war against anything that is government based, then your support of the government in any fashion is also evil. The use of currency, the purchasing of products, the subscription to internet connections, phone bills, credit cards, a mortgage, etc. is also very evil. It is evil, by your logic, because it is in support of a government system. Your social security number is also evil, and your acceptance of it is your support of a government system.

How far are you willing to go with this?

We must fight because we know what to fight for. Those who do not know Christ do not know how to fight; they know how to war. There is a difference...

Fresh Air for Christ said...

I believe that we agree...

The Real Meaning of Romans 13
http://www.rgmultimedia.info/bvi/2011/12/07/the-real-meaning-of-romans-13/

Christians & the World of Politics
http://www.rgmultimedia.info/bvi/2011/12/10/christians-and-the-world-of-politics/

more on authority:
http://www.rgmultimedia.info/bvi/?s=authority

Rick Frueh said...

We are in the world (money, car, job, etc.) but we are not of the world. (The world's systems and variable sense of morality) The New Testament never endorses violence. And this country was birthed by violence over taxes.

yes, we do war, but not with carnal weapons. Our warfare is spiritual which is done through prayer, humility, and the spreading of the gospel. The confusion exists when a believer has allegiance to this our any other earthly country.

We are pilgrims, our lives are hid in Christ with God, and we are to seek those things which are above. The church is not a body given to war and violence. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Bin Laden? Would God have endorsed their abortion or must we wait until they are born?

Afetr Mao took control of China, the chinese church grew like no other indigenous church in history. God even uses dictators for His purposes.

When the church thinks and behaves like the fallen world, she has lost her power and vision of the Risen Christ.

Camille said...

Actually, this country was not birthed over a monetary issue! The pilgrims were not so self-centered as to risk life and limb for money. If that were so, they would not have come here, where no one was, but to another country where they could have sought after financial freedom. And where is it in history where the pilgrims started mining or panning for gold and gems? It was a monetary issue why England did not want us to be a free state. Which take on history are you going to believe? Of course England would make us out to be fools because they hated our defiance and the loss of their funding through taxing us. But to make it out that we broke away over money is frankly missing the point. As in any relationship, there are two sides. When there is a break in that relationship, there are two stories. The ones that say that we broke off for monetary reasons alone (which belittles the scope of the issues encompassing our forefathers) is anti-American.

You are in the world (you are flesh and blood, you breathe), but you are not of it (not murdering, cheating, stealing, etc.). Taxes, credit cards, house payments, all that is not a necessity for being a human being with a soul and spirit and are therefore a part of this world, a byproduct of living in it. Your support of the government system is a support of a war, since it is a stance for something and against something else. Your national identity is a war, just as much as your spiritual identity is one as well. And I mean both of those as a good thing!

I did not say violence, I said war. I sometimes mean to say fighting, but I do not mean to say violence ever! Violence is something that is non Christian, since that is done out of anger and hatred. Do you think that war cannot be done in love? What did Christ Himself do? He fought because He loved us. He endured the cross because of the joy set before Him. It is not true to say that all war/fighting is violence. Again, that is ridiculous. Conversely, that would be like saying that all love is Godly. At that moment, we would be condoning domestic partnerships, etc. That is a tangent...

According to your logic, the church in China after Mao became ruler was out of step and therefore something that God would not have blessed, because they went against the laws of their country. They were fighting, they were standing up for their beliefs, they were putting themselves in harm's way; they were standing against the laws of the land.

There is an undeniable point in this life where the spiritual and physical actually mix/cross and cannot be separated (until death do so). You cannot rightfully say that you will war spiritually only. As a human, there is no such thing, since you are not all spirit. If you war spiritually, then you also war physically. Not all war involves weapons (and not all involvement of weapons is violence [that's a matter of the heart, not the tool]), but all war involves a side for which one stands up and stands against.

Rick Frueh said...

"If you war spiritually, then you also war physically."

Completely untrue. That is fallen reasoning.

Camille said...

What I mean is that if you are in your physical body while you war spiritually, then you are moving your physical body and using it in order to accomplish your spiritual waring. If you pray, you either are using your brain to think about the praying or your mouth to say the words of your prayers. If you are waring spiritually, your physical body cannot help but be involved and affected somehow, someway. Your body is a part of the war by your choosing, albeit your focus is spiritual. It is a fact.

8thday4life.com said...

I can't believe how this post describes my journey too, almost to a "T". I feel like a fish out of water with most of the Christian circles here in the Bible Belt. But I used to be right there with them - lock step. My dh and I last night were just discussing how this great land of ours had its beginning. Just taking off the bias and looking at things the way they really are and were, I have no king but Jesus. No country but heaven.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
The power of the Holy Spirt is really working in all of us, this has been a real big challenge on my heart as i share my same thought with my other brothers in Christ. Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's and
give to God what is God's. the point is not about taxes
its about separating the two Kingdom's of this world.
The only real why we change our world is to jesus first
in everything we do. Everything we do must always show Calvary Jesus love. Jesus wasn't concerned with the meaningless things of this world. Remember our Kingdom is not of this world. We are all trying to be like Christ all the time and all of us our at different relationship with Him, but if all of us
but the Christ is love first, thats what the outside world see first. The second greatest command is to love love your neighbor as ourselves, love our enemies, pray for those that persecute us. If we all did this as a body of Christ this world would be changed. than we affect our brothers, home, community, culture than government forces to change. How many of us can honestly really say they show all these hard examples Christ has shown? Also Christ said "those that live by the sword will die by the sword" and He said that to Peter. What did Christ do to the guard that got his ear cut off by Peter. He healed it, you don't think that, that guard ended up changing his life after that? He showed love toward his enemy.
I would strongly recommend a book called "The Myth of a Christian Nation" and why most christian americans have this false perception of being a strong hold for the Kingdom. My personal belief is that real change never comes from politics, because it the kingdom of the world way, we just thing becasue we are doing it with a christian perspective that its right. Constatine the emperor really became a christian I believe, but when he made it the official religion all it did was do the opposite of Christ, he forced people to turn to Christ of die. In the same since non-believers that see us trying to change laws in the name of Christ see us as arrogant, prideful and most of all forcing us to believe in our values and morals. We become the police instead of showing love, compassion, forgiveness. Instead of showing by example like Christ did. We shoulf be concerned about changing and trasforming hearts.
It doesn't work when you try to do it through the political world, because it the way or system if you will of the World.
May we all speak the truth in Love,
Your brother in Christ- David G

Lisa Small said...

Hi Rick - I find it so comforting to know that God teaches His children the very same things so that we are like minded and united by the Holy Spirit. All I need to say is that the Lord has taught me the very same things. I was involved in politics and even ran for our local school board in the 1990's. Since then, though my mind has been transformed by God. Your article says it all even down to questioning the revolutionary war and what they were fighting for and allegiance to a flag and the US. Jesus is not a respector of nationality. This is definitely not a popular view, but neither were Jesus' views. Continue in your faith and to hear the voice of the Lord speak to you through His Spirit! As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord, even when we get stones thrown at us.

Here's a sermon by John MacArthur that might be of interest:
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/236/a-radical-alternative-to-political-activism

Lisa Small said...

Hi Rick - I find it so comforting to know that God teaches His children the very same things so that we are like minded and united by the Holy Spirit. All I need to say is that the Lord has taught me the very same things. I was involved in politics and even ran for our local school board in the 1990's. Since then, though my mind has been transformed by God. Your article says it all even down to questioning the revolutionary war and what they were fighting for and allegiance to a flag and the US. Jesus is not a respector of nationality. This is definitely not a popular view, but neither were Jesus' views. Continue in your faith and to hear the voice of the Lord speak to you through His Spirit! As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord, even when we get stones thrown at us.

Here's a sermon by John MacArthur that might be of interest:
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/236/a-radical-alternative-to-political-activism

Camille said...

There are so many people out there who would love to tear into the idea that there is no such thing as a Christian nation. There are those who throw it into our faces that we have no right to live in a government who doesn't want Christianity within it's borders. If we believe to look to Heaven while we still have a foot in the door here on earth, then we are allowing the evil to win that is around us. And we are no better than the servant who buried his talent in Jesus parable.

There is moderation to everything. If there isn't to be an standing up for one's beliefs via politics or government, and if we are to obey the laws of the land, then all those that live in a nation that have outlawed Christianity would have to move or recent their faith. Is the human body of the earth or of God? Is the earth itself made by God or Satan? What do you give Caesar? The coin, or the silver? Did Caesar make silver? No! God did! How could you separate the silver from the stamp that made it the coin? There wasn't any way. Jesus wasn't saying to give the metal (since we don't know if it was silver or not) to Caesar, but his currency and his title.

Jesus, in defiance of the Roman empire, rode into Jerusalem as a King and was praised as one. He made a strong statement that day. Why? Because of pride? No, but because he must fulfill the prophecies.

So it is with us. We make a statement. We make it in this world because we are still in this world. Do we do it vindictively? I sure hope not! But we make a very strong statement because of who we are. Our very nature as Christians is in complete opposition to this world. But because God has not called you out of this world yet, you are obligated to still fight for your principles. Otherwise, the government will encroach so strongly on your freedom as to not have any left. And at that point, your silence is partly to blame.

Do you realize what they are trying to do these days? What laws they are trying to pass? How much they are trying to take your children away from you, both in body, soul and mind? Where do you think these laws start? Why does anyone think it's a good idea, much less a God given idea to be silent and allow these laws to be passed?

Giving Caesar what belongs to him isn't allowing him to gain more territory than is his in the first place. Do you all believe that by allowing evil to come flooding in only that more quickly heralds the beginning of Christ's coming and reign? That may be, that I for one will NOT be considered as one who facilitated evil's encroachment by my silence!

Rick Frueh said...

"There are so many people out there who would love to tear into the idea that there is no such thing as a Christian nation."

There is a Christyian nation. It's called the body of Christ and it referred to as a "holy nation". All earthly governments are fallen.

The fastest growing church in any nation is the Chinese church which floursihed under totalitarianism. Democracy is often a detriment to the church since it sometimes causes spiritual laziness and an unholy allegiance to the nation itself.

Camille said...

I am referring to your belief that there is no possibility of there being a God-filled physical government. That's the point of homosexuals and liberals, of atheists and satanists. I believe that there is a Christian nation, both physical and spiritual and I wonder at you not seeing the physical application! Do you not see that you are an 'unholy' alliance of the physical body and the spirit inside of you? (by your own logic)

If China is the fastest growing church, are you advocating that we live in their government style? Are you saying that their government is more sanctioned by God because His Church thrives under their misuse? Why aren't you living in China then, if you feel so strongly about it?

I agree with you about Democracy, absolutely! That's why it's such a great thing that America is NOT a Democracy but a Republic. If you don't know the benefit and the inherent fabric of America, I would encourage you to read more about our history.

If you are so willing to throw away what we do have because you see spiritual laziness in our churches, are you really willing to say that we should have the government that China has? That makes it almost seem like it is the government who has the power to influence the Church. And I honestly don't think that you mean to say that, but can you see where your thinking can get you trapped?

American churches by and large ARE lazy, but that doesn't mean that the solution is one of the most evil governments out there! They are so oppressed and so afraid for their lives and for their families that they are pressed into a very real experience of God Himself, very true. The Lord is strongly with them, that too is true. But why throw away what we have here? Why not continue to reform it, to help the Christians wake up and see what they have here and to continue to fight for what is good.

It's almost as though you agree with the Israelites who allowed themselves to be taken into exile to Babylon! They had become complacent. It's as though you are saying that they were better under the pressure and torment they received in Babylon, so Babylon is the better place! So much so, that Israel before Babylon is nothing to be compared to the beauty of the rigors of Babylon!

Take care here, brother! Please.

Rick Frueh said...

We live in pluarlistic, hedonistic Babylon. But you have completely missed the point. But that's OK.

Escuss said...

I opened a book years ago, The Lord said, " you ask me for grace, and grace you shall have. Grace shows your present disception. That is any thing you do not understand as I do. Knowing your present disception brings humility".
" who is so blind as my servant".

Yes zeal is good. We need zeal for God rapped up in love........ And the thoughts of God.

PR in mn

Escuss said...

Yes, the fallen Angel topic is so so deep. We special chosen ones are still honoring Columbus for murdering the innocent and never landing on the Americas. How do you explain such madness. ??? I want a paid holiday.
Oh and we chosen ones will for sure be raptured while the world is burning and African babys die in Horrific vortex of murders , Aids and torment . I'm so special.
Lord have mercy.

R. Fowler said...

Hey Rick

I agree that our allegiance should be to God alone through Christ. And I would also agree that there is no scripture that condones going to war to change things i.e. the revolutionary war.

But since God is the one who sets up and takes down governments then it was His will that revolutionary war turned out the way it did.

Also, does that mean that America should not have gotten involved in the WWI or WWII?

Just asking.

Rick Frueh said...

That God "sets up and takes down" governemnts directly is an overreach. Sovereignty never means complete direction of everything, but it means everything is woven into the fabric of God's overarching plan.

God used the creation of America even though the revolutionary War was not His direct will. There is of course a mystery to all of this, but God will not violate His principles in order to force His will.

But God has eschewed violence in the gospel age, however when Christ returns He will bring violent judgment upon the whole earth. But until then, the teachings of the Master are our mandate.

Jenny Jack said...

Hi Rick it may be a bit late to post this comment and so many you wonderif they everget read. On the question of politics my senior pastor is running for politics. At first I did not agree with it. However I believe that unquestionalbly the church should involve itself in politics. Not in the sense of running for it but churches should give guide lines for voting. Not based on party stuff but examining the values that parties vote for. We live in a Democratic society not a monarchy which we can do nothing about nor a theocracy whic we also have no influence over but democracy. That means we have a certain amount of control over who runs the country and we can use ourvote under the direction of the Holy Spirit and base it on party values. Politics in church do mix and should./ we should know what we are doing and we should ecourage Christians to stand for parliament. We have a God given opportunity to be involved at the top level of control in the nation to lay down the values of Judeo Christianity in order to keep the nation Christian and we dont do it. I believe that if we had taken those opportunities much earlier we would not be now in the mess we are in now. With abortion, homosexuality, gay marriage and many other things. God bless and thanks for your thoughts Jenny Jack.

Rick Frueh said...

"to lay down the values of Judeo Christianity in order to keep the nation Christian"

Your premise is faulty. America is pagan.

Anonymous said...

Rick,

Could you explain what you mean by “God used the creation of America even though the revolutionary War was not His direct will.” I rather believe that God set up America for Christianity much like he did Israel for the Jews. The people were being oppressed treated unfairly, and that is against
God’s law.

Why was WWII fought? Lets look at it different then our History book. Without WWII the nation of Israel would not be a nation now. What if one of the reasons for America was to protect Israel, not that God needs anyone to protect Israel. What if another was for the Christian body, with their resources, was to reach out around the world with the message of Jesus Christ? We are a nation founded on Biblical principles with inalienable rights from God. Anyone that is saved is in a covenant with the God. That covenant includes to “Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.” Psalm 82:3. A look at Proverbs 14:31 reinforces our responsibility, “Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.” We should be against violence, but that does not mean we are not to defend ourselves and others who are not capable to.

As a retired Air Force member I took an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States against foreign and domestic enemies, so help me God. That includes our government. If we the people were not asleep at the wheel our government would not be in the shape it is in. Our story is no different then Israel’s. The people turned from God and unfortunately when it rains both the just and unjust get wet. We are a nation that claims to be 75-80% percent Christian. I think about 65- 70% will be in for a surprise when God separates the sheep to His left and right. What will some of the people that left comments say when God asks, “Why did you kill babies, and why did you allow Homosexuality?” And they will reply, “We never had an abortion or did any gay acts.” God will reply, you did not vote for men that were against Abortion or Gay rights. Remember you are with God or against Him. If you do not take a stand then you are against. Yes the other politician might be just as corrupt but as long as he believes that abortion and Homosexuality is wrong you need to vote for them. You are in a covenant with God. If you break that covenant God does not need to honor it. You are saved by faith, but that faith is more then believing Jesus died for your sins. That faith means to believe in the word of God, all of it, not just the parts that meet your needs, because this is not about you.

It is our responsibilities to conform to civil laws as it was God that set it up. At the same time when those laws are in conflict with Gods law, we are to follow Gods law. Because we have failed to make a stand I believe that a tee shirt saying, “Homosexuality is a sin” will soon be hate speech, but we of little faith will not make a stand.

Steve
Woodstock, GA

Rick Frueh said...

The Constitutionj is a fallen document. Please provide me with Scriptural evidence where violence is allowed to combat higher taxes.

As a believer, taking an oath to protect the Constitutaion is idolatry. Violence is the world's way to achieve something.

Ramone said...

Hi Rick... I thought I'd share this picture & verse with you about these things: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=414482085278609

Anonymous said...

Finally getting over here to read this one.. .looks like just about a year ago you wrote this - before I saw your blog through facebook friends. Getting ready to write a very similar post too. I really can't believe what I used to think was complimentary to my faith in Christ. Really sickens me now. But several years ago I found that question rolling around in my mind about our revolution.. on what basis was it valid? "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft... " except for the Revolution. hmmm. Not sure that flies. And yes, it treasonous and blasphemous to suggest, but it seems pretty obvious to me now.
8thday4life... (won't let me use the blog ID... user error I'm sure.)