Friday, February 01, 2013

Life and Death or Lawsuits and Telethons


There is a book floating around called “The Harbinger”. It is written by a man named Jonathan Cahn who calls himself a rabbi. It really is a logical continuance of nationalism and the rampant idolatry living within the American church. In short, Cahn takes a verse or two from the Old Testament and pieces together a story, which he claims is true, that says God was warning us (“us” being America) on 9/11 and that we failed the test and self righteously rebuilt another structure on the site instead of repenting and turning to God. You can read about it HERE.

So now this book is selling like hot cakes and many of the television evangelists are flocking to have Cahn on because, you guessed it, it peaks interest and more importantly elicits donations. It’s all too predictable, as if we have not seen this scenario before just with a different arresting topic du jour. I mean these men and women on television are always searching for another golden goose in order to increase viewership and offerings. And when you include America and when the author calls himself a rabbi and has a beard, well then you have an eye popping exposé.

This, again, is nationalism all dressed up as sensational prophecy. The elevation of America as the apple of God’s eye continues to be a blatant lie which is centered in self righteousness and takes “American exceptionalism” to a new and blasphemous level. But many have written about their objections to this book as evidenced by my link. There are literally hundreds of men and women who have taken the time to carefully dissect this book and its faulty premise. Ok, nothing new here.

But wait! How can you tell when something has become the proverbial golden goose? How can you tell when the money is flowing in? Well carnal people will do whatever it takes to protect it. And in the lineage of the giant chasing Jack as he absconded with that golden goose, the people behind the book have threatened lawsuits. You can read about it HERE.

THIS is a site which I visit and found this information.

The world must rightfully scoff at any of our Biblical convictions since we so easily discard those when necessary. Humility is worthless when there is money at stake. The same people, like Cahn, who are delirious over the Constitution refuse to allow others to use the 1st Amendment? Such hypocrisy and greed. If these men saw an uptick in sales because of articles that confronted their premise they would beg the discernment sites to write more. In the end it’s all about money and influence and money and sensationalism and money, money, and more money.

And now I once more ask this rhetorical question: Does anyone even believe the Bible anymore? It has become a destructive circus which is more applicable for a late night talk show monologue than a powerful expression of Jesus Christ. Lawsuits? It’s a shame that the martyrs did not have some legal recourse. Let this be a warning to us all. There may come a time, and in many places already exists, when people like us are ostracized by the organized church. And as the organized church becomes more and more compromised, and as it befriends the world, we may be persecuted for our faith by friend and foe alike.

But let us stay humble and with our eyes firmly fixed upon the Lord Jesus. Whether it be in our own house or the church house or even the jail house, let us never allow our lips to grow silent in our praise of Him and our sharing of His truth. John Bunyan, the author of Pilgrim’s Progress, was required to take a state license before he could preach publicly. He refused because his allegiance was to Christ who called him and not the state, and he was summarily sent to prison. His wife and daughter sometimes almost starved and were forced into selling things in the street.

When state officials saw such a pitiful sight they went to Bunyan and told him how his family was suffering so terribly. Once again they told him that if he would only take a license he would be released and could help his family and preach as well. You might think that it was such a little thing to take a license, but in those days your spiritual integrity meant something.

Bunyan looked through the bars and said to the officials, “If I ever thrust my hand through these bars to reach for that license, please cut off my arm”.

Yes, in those days the commitment to Christ was life and death, not lawsuits and telethons.


Ramone said...

A friend asked me about "The Harbinger" so I prayed, and then watched the video. As I was watching, I was moved in the Spirit to start painting. Here is the painting and the description of what it means: "Laying Errors"

Cherie c. said...

I know the people who run ABI website. Dave James is one of them. He wrote a book disputing the Harbinger. My sister ascribes to the Harbinger in some way and she is also a big follower of Wilkerson.

Cahan is also a follower of Wilkerson. If you go to Youtube and type in Wilkerson, you will see sermons on this very topic. Cahn just decided to capitalize on these sermons. I doubt this book was an original thought based upon the sermons of Wilkerson shown to me by my sister. Thought those people were behind me. Can't get away from this. Tragic all around.

They all need to repent. Every last one of them.

Cherie c.

Chris Baumgart said...

A picture speaks a thousand words... Thank you for bringing this matter to my and others attention. I feel a need to look into it further. What also comes to mind is the scripture and continued preaching of these words found in Geneisis, "and I will bless them that will bless you, and curse them that curses you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed". As Christians it seems to be a command from today's pulpits that we align with these words because if not our nation will be accursed... Though in my heart of hearts the Lord directs me to the words of scripture describing Israel as where eventually the "abomination of desolation, the son of perdition" shall arise from. (2 Thess. 2). - so the nation that I spend my life "blessing" will be the same nation that calls for my head, my death... Rev. 13:7 and it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them... - confusing. So many Christians who ride this bandwagon of nationalism and their children's children are bound in this delusion. Evangelism is critical in all parts of the world, and no doubt Israel continues to play a critical role in prophesy for the sake of God's message of salvation to be proclaimed from, but are we going about this with a sober mind?

Anonymous said...

I think we're seeing that men's hearts now are so hardened and yielded to the temptations of being wealthy that almost nothing can bring them back to reason.

Rejection of God through the ages was almost always from the powerful families, rich, the strong, the ambitious, the influential, kings, priests, leaders; I remember the story of Paul preaching to Festus and Festus was almost convinced but decided to commit on another day. But these people were unbelievers.

NOW, we are seeing the "churched" who are rejecting the gospel message by attacking each other in courts? Simply for money. We are witnessing a generation of christians who come from a time (our 21st century) where revivals and spiritual awakenings were going on from coast to coast. God was pouring out his Spirit on all flesh, on the world, and in the U.S. Many pastors and teachers believed this century to be the latter rain before Christ's return. So, now, instead of carrying on this latter rain blessing onto others with haste, some have become as hard-core hearted, greedy, entitled and demands of throwing their brethren in jail because it prevents a book they wrote from being challenged. In fact, a book that they gleam from God's revelation to men; a book that they have published for sale so they can reap the $$$ unto themselves. They take God's words, God's Berean servants' instructions to His Church, and make a fortune out of them, for themselves, and then some other christian writes a book (for profit) to refute the first book, they are sued in court.

Meanwhile, the true watchmen, along with the meak, weak, and those who stuggle to survive and do the little they can to spread God's salvation and eternal hope are lumped all together with these incontinent deceived spitters on the Name of Jesus. Every good effort that a true witness exposes, has mud thrown on that exposition by the mockers, those who've never been exposes to Christ. And the church is becoming a spectacle of ridicule.

michael said...

I don't endorse Cahn. I was sent a link to Cahn's prayer/preachment at this year's unofficial prayer breakfast during the inaugural festivities. It is about a half hour and a few minutes long and you get a sense he was pitching his book and giving "one liner" gotchas more than actually praying with a broken heart for a godless nation.

At the sola de Gloria blog site cited by Rick I pointed out a couple things I wish to point out here regarding this penchant for the U.S. being some special nation favored by God over all other nations including present day Israel.

Consider this verse and ask yourself if there is any special mention to the "Hebrews/Jews" of the 1 Century of a coming nation or Israel?

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Hebrews 1:1, 2 ESV)

In the verse the only "connection" to either nation is found in the words in the verse: "heir of all things"!

Now, as for the lawsuit, as I said I don't endorse Cahn or suing this other "Christian" organization. They pull out of context one verse from 1 Cor. 6:1-8.

The organization quotes this verse:

but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? (1 Corinthians 6:6 ESV)

I'd quote all the verses 1-8 and highlight this one as a rebuttal to it:
To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? (1 Corinthians 6:7 ESV)

That question was directed to the Christian "why not rather suffer wrong"?

I suppose the apostle Paul was aware of this verse which may have been a part of his reason for asking the question:

And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. (Matthew 5:40 ESV)

I am being persuaded more and more there is a darkness covering the senses to discern the Living Hope we are to enjoy and be guided by under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as born again True Beleivers of His Faith once delivered to His Saints!

Anonymous said...

Cherie: Wilkerson is a trustworthy preacher. He calls (called) men to repentance. His words and admonishions after 9/11 are good words. But Cahn mixes in the error that America has special covenant status with God, and that the present political state of Israel does too.

This nation of America IS under judgment and will receive greater judgments. But the error with Cahn and all the other culture warriors/patriots/ dominionists is that they confuse America with the church and with God's chosen and so on. There is NO covenant that America has with God other than the covenants of grace. Jesus is the mediator of the covenant.

So we the church as a corporate people should be calling and imploring men to come out of the nations and kingdoms of this world into the true Ark which is Christ. Instead, these misguided christians want their beloved culture or nation to continue, or their temporal prosperity to continue, so they are driven to bully and cajole and threaten the "sinners" to shape up so that "we" can escape the judgment. It looks very selfish when you really look at it. You know-how kids in a school classroom scold the few misbehavers to shape up, or we're ALL going to get extra homework and have to stay after school. . . Don't they read in Scripture that we have escaped the corruption that is in the world, that we are secure in eternity, but that all in this world is shifting sand?

How can a real christian who claims to believe the Scriptures, thus place his trust in man--in what other unregenerate men do??? We might ought to read Jeremiah. He told the people that God wanted them to stay put, be overcome by Babylon, go into captivity, but in the end they would be restored. Jeremiah's word seemed utterly treasonous to Israel. But they were not to resist the judgment that the Lord was bringing. Those who went to Egypt anyway, which looked in human reason to be the only wise course of action, were utterly wiped out. Is resorting to political powers today the same as going back to Egypt in the face of coming judgment? Daniel is another character to study. He was in Babylon, worked for the anti-christ king, yet his witness by not compromising eventuated in that king declaring the God of Daniel to be the only True God.

We need to be building the ark (the corporate church that has the gospel in power to save men out of the judgments coming on this world) and preaching for men to come IN to the ark. Cahn and these others are instead trying to stop it raining, or trying to transform the whole country into an ark--can never be!

I'm ranting. Perhaps someone will receive something by the Spirit in the references I made. I'm not communicating clearly nor thoroughly.

My spirit is very heavy and my heart discouraged this evening over this mess.

Chris: what does the Lord mean when the Holy Spirit wrote, "bless Abraham?" It's not that we support the wars of an ungodly man-made political state that has many Jewish people in it, in a legalistic attempt to extort temporal blessings from God for ourselves. It is blessing with the witness and gospel of Jesus Christ so as to provoke the Jew to jealousy. Abraham is the father of the faithful. This Scripture is misunderstood and misused to manipulate and exploit people, along with the Genesis so-called "Dominion mandate."

Rick, feel free to not post this if I am way off or I sound bossy.

Michael, I appreciate what you wrote, and you inspire me to strive for that Living Hope and relationships that you describe in your final paragraph.

I love you all fellow readers and posters.

Anonymous said...

(Isa 50:1) Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

(Isa 50:2) Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

(Isa 50:3) I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.

(Isa 50:4) The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.

(Isa 50:5) The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.

(Isa 50:6) I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

(Isa 50:7) For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

(Isa 50:8) He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

(Isa 50:9) Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

(Isa 50:10) Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

(Isa 50:11) Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Chris Baumgart said...

Victoria, yes, the blanket precept is for many in the pulpit is to support militarily, Israel, and in other cases as you mentioned above to extort temporal blessing from God... Watching the Harbinger video while Jonathan Cahn speaks we hear a violinist wail, playing Jewish themed music... Sorry my first impression was, it's feeling like a circus, the building of emotions before someone does a double somersault on the trapeze... In this case feeding a questionable prophetic message to the hearers... The later point I was trying to make clear is that many Christians treat the Jewish people as though they are already saved. And they are not. Any inkling that you may have about a saved Jewish person being more special than a gentile, they are not. In the minds of many Christians it is infatic because of conditioning that the Jewish nation can do no wrong. But when the anti-Christ appears this Jewish nation will receive his mark and set out to eliminate you, and other followers of Christ. --surprise!

Anonymous said...

yes, chris!

The present state called Israel will covenant with anti-christ, only to be turned on with unprecedented ferocity, after which Jesus Himself appears to save a remnant.

Are you aware of the Reggie Kelly and his studies of the church and Israel at the end of the age?


Cherie c. said...

Chris you are so right. I kind of knew one of the ministries I no longer follow was not speaking the truth and I had a feeling that the end times has something to do wit Israel but could not quite put my finger on it.

Are you saying what I think you and Victoria are saying? The false prophet is Israel? Dispensationalism is false? That God doesn't have a plan for Israel and Christians? To be fair, the ministry I no longer follow did emphasize that Jewish people need to repent and come to a saving knowledge of Jesus, but that what happens to Israel in the Tribulation period is a form of judgment and yes a remnant will be saved.

I take the Bible literally, so I am believing that we will see the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation. One believed to be Enoc and the other Elijah. Am I wrong? This is what I was taught.

your sister in Christ Jesus,
Cherie c.

Chris Baumgart said...

Victoria, Cheri, - I am not familiar with Reggie Kelly, but I bookmarked his site... Keeping watch, praying. Two big things in a believers life. I was raised early in my walk with teaching from a book called, The Kingdom of The Cults, by Walter Martin - that has since allowed me to witness to others who hold to deceptive beliefs... One thing I thought I would never ever see in my life was what took place this last election cycle. Right before my eyes in huge bold display I saw thee evangelical church lift "high" a man, a leader in an anti-Christian church, to be put in a place of prominence with their prayerful (to Jesus) blessings... I witnessed a large Christian television network (TBN) broadcast a Mormon, Glen Becks special... To millions of trusting Christians. No disclaimers, no explainations. The Church, my church, His Church did this! The idol of politics has come into play. Something terribly wrong Is taking place... A great fog has settled onto the minds of the majority of evangelical Christians in this country and it is still here! No one,, no ministry that I know of, has come out to repent from this sin of joining hands, and hearts with Mormonism. One of Satans tools to deceive. What in the name of the Lord is going on! And so the delusion of the last days will continue to come into play... That even the very elect of God will be deceived. We need to keep watch and pray, the book of visions will reveal itself to those who are in relationship with Jesus Christ, those who abide in His righteousness... Fix yourselves on sanctification through faith, it is critical as we are being prepared for Heaven...

Anonymous said...

Cherie: No, the false prophet is not Israel. The state of Israel will be deceived by the anti-christ and make a covenant with him, which will be to their destruction. The present nation-state called Israel is not the Old Covenant theocracy created by the Lord.

Jewish people are in need of salvation through Jesus just like all men. This is a rub with the theology of dispensationalism as I understand it--disp. says the Jewish people do not need faith in Jesus but have a separate covenant.

On the other hand, reform theology says the church replaces Israel; and it spiritualizes the many explicit promises to natural Israel that are yet to be fulfilled. I do not believe that is altogether correct either. The church of gentiles are grafted in branches to the commonwealth of Israel. The eternal covenant is not completely fulfilled yet. This is what Paul was talking about in Romans 11.

This subject--Israel and the Church--is very deep. Mysteries have been hidden that are unfolding and will continue to unfold. Daniel even said that these mysteries were hidden until a later time. Great men and minds of God have been wrestling with this mystery. Jeremiah 31 speaks of the new covenant which has been fulfilled in part in the giving of the Holy Spirit after Jesus' ascension. Yet the everlasting covenant has to do with the millenial reign and the new heaven and earth, and Israel--natural descendents of Israel, after being saved by/in Jesus--have a big part to play in this, along with the church, being made one in the final culmination of the reign of Christ.

Current state Israel is not "the Israel of God" abiding in covenant with God; it cannot inherit the land or promises while in rebellion to the covenant; and is destined for judgment again. That's why I believe the church is to be a witness to the Jew bringing the Gospel to Jewish people as first priority. But out of final judgment, the Lord will save a remnant and that entire remnant will know the Lord in their Messiah Jesus. I believe in an actual millenial reign, from the geographical Mt. Zion, in which that remnant and us will participate. (Reform theology is generally amillenial=no literal thousand year reign with Israel from Jerusalem; or preterist=tribulation already happened so no millenial reign.

I definitely believe God has THE plan for christians and Jewish people, but that both dispensationalism and replacement theology are in error. I am persuaded that Art Katz and Reggie Kelly, who have spent their lives in prayerful and careful study, have understanding on this topic. Frankly, I cannot yet succinctly explain it, so I refer anyone interested to see their writings.

In the meantime, love Jewish people. (Don't idolize the state of Israel, nor the U.S. These nations do not have covenant status with God, and that is the great error of Rabbi Cahn and other patriots.) Love them enough to share and challenge them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and to purpose to be a corporate people who demonstrate the reality of the Kingdom.

My main role model is Corrie ten Boom and her family. They gave everything to love and save Jewish people, FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS, and never did they not insist that salvation is in Him alone. No cheap sentimentality, no quid pro quo to get "blessings", no going to war to fight enemies, no political strategies.

I hope I didn't poke a hornet's nest. I don't have it all figured out; I don't hate people who don't see it my way. Let's just stay humble enough to be taught, and avoid what we know to be error that ends up dissipating the gospel commission and preparedness for end times faithfulness, and arrogance that makes for cold hearts.

(I won't be offended if you, Brother Rick, think this shouldn't be posted.)

Submitting my thoughts to dear brothers and sisters,

Anonymous said...

I've always wondered... how do people who say they "take the Bible literally" (Cherie c. 12:34 PM) handle Jesus' words in Matthew 5:

"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you...."


"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you...." ?

Do you really take this literally? It's an honest question.

Cherie c. said...

Dispensationalism that I was taught Victoria has nothing to do with the country Israel like you said. There is a twisting to the Disp. that I was taught and it is as you say. Those Jewish people who survive the Tribulation are those who will inherit God's promises (remnant). The twisted version is the one that says Jewish people do not have to be saved. That is Not what I believe. The Bible is very clear about preaching the Gospel to the Jew first then the Gentiles. So I do not ascribe to the twisted version of dispensationalism. I have heard of Ms. Ten Boom (forgive spelling), from my sister who is a Sabbath Keeper, and she gave me the impression that Ms. Ten Boom is also a Sabbath Keeper. I do not know if she is or isn't but I follow what the Bible says. There is so much deception out there I just keep my eyes, ears and heart on the Lord. I am trying to work out my work schedule so that I can spend more time in the Word. I am white knuckled to the garment of Jesus, clinging for dear life.

Chris, the church you mention in your comment is not my church or your church. Those who have come out from among them are the real church, and I truly believe those who are in the "church" will be our persecutors sometime in the near future, it has already happened to me somewhat two years ago.

Keeping all in prayer.

your sister in Christ Jesus,
Cherie c.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Chris, what a grief and astonishment was the american christian church during the last election! I was shocked and grieved that the "christian right" had gone so far into compromise that it was largely deceived, and couldn't see the blatant unholy alliance it was leading its flocks into. I was into the right not that long ago myself, so I have compassion, but indignation too at how far off the rails it has gone. A few years ago, the Lord graciously rocked my world on so many fronts, and led me back to my First Love, and the scales fell off my eyes about many issues. Praise to my Lord Who keeps me and watches over me and corrects and chastises me!

Yes, a great fog has settled over many...I wonder if a great separation is taking place, a separation orchestrated by the Lord. Like a sifting, a polarizing; separating the true from the false. Wheat and tares becoming somewhat distinguished from one another? We need to pray and call and contend with brothers who are going the wrong way.

I think many christians, especially those who are "leaders" or who are professionals, get deceived because of their own ambitions and lusts, then many followers who aren't Berean passively get swept in along. I think deception may be more the judgment on sin than the root sin. But I believe He will correct and rescue those who are pure in heart, those who seek Him with all their heart.

We can pray for the Lord to send laborers into the fields, and to the Shepherd to provide shepherds after His own heart; because I often wonder if Jesus is not weeping over His american church the way He wept over the multitudes because they are like sheep without a shepherd.

I really take to heart your admonishings and encouragements to watch and pray and abide in Him as we see the day approaching.

How good it is to have Rick's blog sermons, and the forum, and our fellowship here. Thanks to all of you; you are each bringing something from the Lord that ministers and edifies! Hey--that sounds like church! :- )


Chris Baumgart said...

Victoria, going back to Reggie Kelly... Some of the initial reading I've begun to "bump heads" with. some simple doctrinal logic... Concerning the salvation of all the Jews at the return of Christ... Mr. Kelly talks about the Jewish nation being saved after the tribulation... At Christ's return all will be saved. What's confusing is how will anyone be able to survive there if they cannot buy nor sell without the mark of the beast? God explicitly warns that those who receive the mark will not inherit eternal life. Also it would be logical that to fulfill his plan the Anti-Christ would need an army of or majority of followers to gather up those who will not bow to his system and throw them into prisons or kill them... I prefer not to get into a tug of war concerning these teachings with you, but his explanation gets cloudy... Again, for the nation of Israel to be saved they all would have to deny being "marked"... A remnant seems more likely. I feel sometimes we put the cart before the horse in teaching doctrine. We may have a certain amount of truth from Gods Spirit but we must be careful with it. -peace.

Cherie c. said...

If I may Chris, Victoria,

I went to the Reggie Kelly site you suggested Victoria, and he says basically what I have been taught, however he is not really clear on those Jewish people who get saved. To help you Chris with this understanding, as I am not a preacher, because I am a woman, but just to steer you in the right direction.

I was taught that two out of every Jewish person living in Israel will perish except for a remnant. About 3 million will be persevered for a one day salvation when Jesus after the defeat of the armies will ride to Petra where this remnant will be to bring them back to Jerusalem. It is this remnant that will look upon whom they have pierced and be saved. I was taught that the Jewish Holidays of Rosh a shana and Yom Kipper are the shadow (law) that Jesus will fulfill at this time. His first coming fulfilled the Spring feasts, Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost, and that His second coming will fulfill the fall feasts mentioned above.


I do take the Bible literally. If we say we do not then what we read about Jesus and His death on the cross is spiritual? No, it really happened. Yes, I believe what Jesus say about removing an eye if it causes you to sin, but I also believe it sends a message about how serious He is regarding us taking our salvation seriously. Why do we diminish His sayings to avoid what we perceive as not right. He knows the truth, he knows us, so if He stood before me and said, "Cherie take out your right eye it is causing you to sin", I would listen and do it. Would you? Also, should we do the sacrifices as stated in Leviticus? No, but that book in the Old Testament speaks of the Holiness of God. God's Word is both literal and spiritual. Part of discernment is knowing what is literal and what is spiritual. No, I am not compelled to cut out my eye, but it does speak to me on the seriousness of salvation and what would be necessary in order to obtain it, keep it. And if it came down to being able to enter into the Kingdom without my right eye, then so be it. I don't think it is necessary at this point because we should not being engaging in lust of the eyes, and of the flesh.

I do not have all the answers, but some of what I have been taught lines up with Scripture.

your sister in Christ Jesus
Cherie c.

Chris Baumgart said...

Cherie, please refer to my response to Victoria in the comments above concerning the teachings go Reggie Kelly. Thank you always for sharing your insights here.

Anonymous said...

Cherie, thanks for the clarification on your belief vs. the twisting that has occured; it is very much like what mine is at this time. Glad you are not influenced by the ever-more-popular Christian Zionist error that Jews do not need the Gospel of Jesus Christ; and that we have to support whatever the political state of Israel does.

Chris: Katz and Kelly's understanding is that the anti-christ and his alliances will turn on the state of Israel and all Jews worldwide, that 2/3 will be killed, that Jews will flee ("be sifted")into the wildernesses of the nations (literal wilderness and hiding) where a prepared gentile church will care for them with natural and divine providence (because they have not taken the mark), and preach to them in demonstration of Christ-like self-sacrificing love, even unto its own martyrdom, and then Jesus will return bodily; those surviving Jews will all repent at the revelation of Jesus to their previously veiled hearts; and into the millenial reign there is no longer just a remnant of believing Jews, but that all physical descendants of Abraham will know the Lord from then on.

I know a little of the life of Art Katz and feel that he is credible because of the witness of his life; that's all--I have no "dog in the fight."

Right now there is so much speculation and varyance among believers, but He will make it plain to those who seek Him. Let us indeed be at peace, yet diligent to seek wisdom and understanding.

For me: I simply want to be teachable by the Lord to be prepared for what he may call us and want to prepare us for; I don't think a rapture-escape mentality or amillenial unpreparedness is wise; neither is the zionist notion that present state Israel will eventually become a holy nation of priests.

Cherie: Corrie ten Boom was 50 when she went to a Nazi concentration camp for saving Jewish people. She survived and travelled the world with the message of Jesus' faithfulness and God's love, the necessity to forgive one's enemies, to be prepared for suffering, until she was 80 years old. She is quite inspiring and faith-building! She passed on to glory in 1983. I read nothing in her own writings about observing Sabbath per se; I suppose the family may have for the sake of the Jews living with them during occupation, which would be appropriate IMHO. Does "Sabbath Keeper" refer to Hebrew Roots folks who contend we non-Jewish christians are required to keep Jewish law? She wasn't that, nor am I. I have befriended observant Jewish people, some not believers and others who were christians, with whom I've shared Sabbath observances in their home, and with one young Jewish woman who lived with us for awhile who converted to Christ.

It is blessed to discuss with you all in the simplicity of devotion to Christ. I learn a lot and am edified.

Cherie c. said...


=D You make me smile. I am learning a lot from you dear sister.

Cherie c.