Sunday, December 30, 2012

Can a Goat be a Sheep?


CAN A GOAT BE A SHEEP?

No human is God. None of us can identify who are goats and who are sheep with absolute certainty. “The Lord knows those who are His.” But throughout the New Testament God tells us about many character traits, beliefs, and the life changing effects of being born again into the kingdom of God. And to be sure God did not share those insights with us just for some benign information. In fact God also exhorts all of us to examine ourselves. But He also asks us to warn those who seem religious, or don’t even meet that criteria, and share with them the dire consequences of being religious but not being born again.

And there is a distinct phenomenon which occurs when the church itself becomes compromised by the world’s systems and slowly but surely it begins to wrest the standard from Scripture and move the parameters further and further away from God’s Word. Eventually people are received as true believers with very little if any genuine examination. And although we must avoid being seen as Pharisees, we still cannot shirk from our responsibility to speak what God says. Anyone who reads my blog knows that I hold God’s grace in high esteem, and I am far from being legalistic. But that cannot be used to deceive people by casting a nebulous blanket of redemption upon anyone who attends church or even has been made a member of a local church.

There is not one of God’s true children who are anywhere near perfect. The most pious and dedicated among us have observable feet of clay. In fact it has been my experience that the closer I draw to Christ and the more intimate my relationship with Him becomes, the more clearly I see just how far short I fall. It is quite a phenomenon. Although I can see Christ more clearly, and although the reward is just that in and of itself, one of the residual affects is that I can see myself as standing completely in grace and without one shred of holiness in and of myself. If anything is obvious to us who follow Jesus it is that. We are both children of the Most High God as well as miserable wretches. Another one of God’s glorious mysteries!

But we cannot just stand by and let millions of people be deceived. We must speak the truth in love with that dual emphasis. Evangelical church members throughout America believe they are assured a trip to heaven and yet show no heart for Christ and His Word. But since they attend a local church and since they may even support it financially, the so called shepherds are adverse to preach anything close to a convicting message. In many cases the preacher himself is walking in an elaborate ecclesiastical system and he bears little spiritual fruit as outlined by God’s Word. And so what we have is a self promoting system which captures unsuspecting sinners, teaches them a list of morals, demands they serve the local church structure, gets them baptized, and feeds them a few cardinal doctrines and we pronounce them saved and ready for heaven. And if by chance they should doubt that, we inundate them with assurance.

There. That is the state of the evangelical community in America. Yes, I purposely painted with a broad brush because I believe the situation is wide spread and has seeped into almost all corners and genres of evangelicalism. And when you do not see it you cannot fight against it. When you are presented with a false Christ construct, you falsely believe you are following Him. When you are exhorted to be a good citizen of America, you no longer strive to be a good citizen of heaven. And when the Word of God has been forced to bow to the word of man, then the church begins to walk a journey to nowhere, or more directly, a journey to itself.

And goats are invited to join that journey and they are called sheep. What a tragedy! What a horror! As if our pitiful missions efforts are not enough; as if our lack of Christ demonstrations are not enough; but now we must convince the unredeemed that are part of God’s redemptive family? What greater spiritual treason can there be? And Sunday after Sunday after Sunday the redundant mantras stream from articulate lips that seek to soothe consciences and draw other goats into there particular flock. The spectacle is wonderful to the flesh and most disturbing to the Spirit. Like an assembly line, the church has no passion for repentance, humility, and a genuine and self denying pursuit of Christ.

Millions of unregenerate sinners grace church pews every week and leave feeling good about themselves and good about the church and good about the preacher. Never in the history of the church has there been so many churches and so many members and so many buildings and so many bookstores and so many television programs and so many Bibles, but with so little impact. The evangelical church in America is so powerless that it cannot even elect who it desires, so what can it do in the Spirit? If the church doesn’t even have earthly power, do we really believe it has divine power? I don’t think we can even convince ourselves of that!

But dwelling in those many tens of thousands of chairs and pews are satisfied and well fed goats. They love the “how to” sermons which never mention Christ. They applaud the conservative politics spoken of by politically savvy goat shepherds. They enjoy wonderful and uplifting music. The fellowship is warm, the atmosphere is affirming, and the feeling of belonging blesses their lives. But yet they are lost. This is no trifle. This is life and death, eternity with Christ or eternity separated from Christ. But the church is consumed with the temporal and eternity is only a doctrine which finds no practical application.

The goats are offered spiritual security from the spiritually hollow. The entire atmosphere is designed to manipulate the senses and leave people feeling good. Altars filled with tears? People so under conviction that they cannot leave their seats? Shepherds so concerned for their hearers that they weep behind their pulpits? People openly repenting of secret sins? People arriving at the meeting having spent considerable time in prayer already? No, no. The redundant and predictable scenario marches on every week and every week all things remain the same. And yet no one even questions why?

Oh yes the Spirit can and does sometimes reach a lost sinner and lead him to faith in Christ. But that cannot excuse the spiritual condition of the church. Most churches now have slogans to aid in drawing people to their local fellowship. Most churches grow by either attracting and affirming goats, or by those who are already believers joining. And the criteria for most people for finding a church is the oratorical prowess of the preacher, the children’s program, the geographical location, the music program, the friendliness of the people, or even sometimes the building itself. Like walking through Rooms-to-Go and choosing a bedroom set, such are many people as they peruse the local evangelical landscape looking for a church will fit their needs and wants.

But lurking within these ecclesiastical walls are all kinds of people with all kinds of levels of spirituality including those who are not regenerate but assume a thin veneer of religion. And there seems to be a symbiotic relationship between the church and the goats. The church lures the goats in with soothing and informational messages and many kinds of gimmicks, and when the goats come and join they affect and compromise the church even further. Even some committees are filled with people with very questionable spiritual lives. Money and social standing always play a part as well. And the entire system becomes an organized plant for capturing and processing people and arriving at the desired result - a functioning member of that local assembly.

And with that as the pursuit the western church has been more than successful. The church has bestowed upon people the moniker “Christian” with hardly any discernment or careful and loving discipleship. The entire church concept has morphed into a great machine which operates by the tools learned within the culture and an American competitive spirit which deems that more and bigger are better than less and smaller. And in order to achieve the desired ends, the facilities must be accommodating as well as alluring. Signs and slogans and literature and programs and advertisements and lighting and parking attendants and most everything that makes even a medium sized church a well oiled machine. There are many books that inform churches how to attract people.

And through that machine come goats, untouched, unruffled and received with only slight expectations of change which usually centers around a more pronounced participation in that machine. In essence, when a person embraces and participates within that machine not only is he looked upon as saved, but depending on the level of participation he may even be perceived as mature. And the spiritual condition, to say nothing of the spiritual quality, of church members is hardly questioned since doing so would require the same level of discernment toward the pastor.

This is a dangerous and eternally diabolical situation. How many church members are not born again? How many preachers are hirelings? How many churches are offering factories? How many church members go prayer less and without ever once witnessing for Jesus? I do not say these things from high atop a pinnacle myself. But how can we remain silent when precious souls are being deceived? They are not being led into Mormonism, or the Watchtower, or Christian Science, but let us be painfully frank. They are being led into a cult just as insidious as the ones we love to identify. And because these churches are considered mainstream, their deceptive practices can be even more subtle and eternally dangerous. It will only get worse as time goes on.

Let us examine ourselves, and then nurture and care for others without any earthly agenda.
Let us make disciples rather than church members.

73 comments:

Shannon said...

Rick, you say "But we cannot just stand by and let millions of people be deceived."

Also, What are you saying here?: "Oh yes the Spirit can and does sometimes reach a lost sinner and lead him to faith in Christ."
Is it not God Himself Who adds to and builds His Church? Since He knows the hearts of all, He is saving those who respond to the Light. This takes all pressure off of believers to "perform" and "work" to draw/lead the unsaved to Him.

The Book of John gives great understanding of this subject. The True Church is led by the True Shepherd. The Lord is allowing apostasy and deceptions.
Goats/professing believers without His Spirit do not want Truth. They follow the hirelings willfully. They alone are at fault because they love darkness.

John 3:18-20
“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 10:4,5
“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

John 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Those that are rejecting the True Light that enlightens every man (every person) being born into the world either receives the true light or rejects it and does not want the Truth.
The Spirit is the one who convicts the world of sin.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Shannon

Shannon said...

PSALM 127:1 "Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it...."

Jason Cole said...

AMEN AMEN AND AMEN.....
AND ITS NOT JUST AMERICA, BUT THE ENTIRE WESTERN CHURCH AS WELL.....

GOD BLESS YOU.

~Jason G Cole...

Rick Frueh said...

I am saying that sinners sometimes do come to Christ in compromised settings. I was saved listening to Billy Graham, and I now realize he compromised in areas. I was conveying that the Spirit is not limited to settings of which we all approve.

Also, I believe that there will be people lost who might have been saved had they not stumbled by the lives and false messages of others. I reiterate that I am by no means a Calvinist.

Lori T. said...

"And goats are invited to join that journey and they are called sheep. What a tragedy! What a horror!"

When the intense persecution comes to the western church as elsewhere; the pretenders will run away. May we all be able to stand in the evil days ahead in Jesus name.

Anonymous said...

Hello pastor Rick, what you say is true, however, in many churchy 'circles', the problem is far more advanced - the goats have forcefully taken over. I have attended many a bible study where people (who are even serving in ministry) will openly share their (obviously) sinful acts and wordly behavior, and verbally justify them with a confident smile. These goats often also like to intimidate others over insignificant non - issues. This is one of the reasons that many people are driven away from churches. We like to say that it's because of the lack of biblical teaching, but I think it's much more complex - the end times are filled with violent distortions and perversions.

Cherie c. said...

The Bible speaks about a remnant. That means that there are those yet to be saved that may very well be a goat, so to speak now.

We do not know who or when, but I believe what Jesus meant by saying "the sheep follow him because they know his voice" goes along with those who have ears to hear, let them hear. We do not know where anyone will be when they HEAR HIM, and their spirit is awakened by His Voice.

I was called out of the church system, I truly believe that. I also know, that I know, that I know, I had the choice to stay, but I didn't. The church system, especially the American church is a runaway train headed for broken track over a cliff.

Yes persecution to us is coming; it has started already and my heart fears. The attacks I received from my last church were brutal and all over facebook. I was in the inner circle and when I spoke out about the apostasy it was like being turned on by a pack of wild beasts. There is no Jesus in the church system that we read in our Bibles, and those in the church do not read their bibles as they should, independently. They read how they are instructed to read it, by the guidance of the pastor who is busy making sure the church service "goes smoothly like a Broadway show" (direct quote)

I do notice more and more how wretched I am as I get closer to a Holy God, and humbled that He wants me to be with Him anyway. Nothing, no one, or anything can beat that. If we mess up with people, they want our heads. Forget about forgiveness. They want blood, and even when you give them that, it is not enough. Jesus died for us while we were in sin. His blood isn't enough for them either.

Rest assured if I didn't leave the church, I too would be a goat by now. As battered and bruised as I am from being there, He is faithful to cleanse me when I repented and give me His righteousness. Not because I got smart and left the church, but because I fell flat on my face and asked. It is His choice to see past my putrid self and bless me anyway.

We were all goats at one time, now those who follow a risen Christ are sheep anxiously seeking after our shepherd, or at least we should be.

Cherie c.

Cherie c. said...

As I am reading the posts a question pops up in my head. Could it be possible that reprobate mind is already happening? How can one read what Jesus says about the difficulty of a rich man getting into the Kingdom, and still pursue the prosperity doctrine of man?

How can they say that a poor or sick person has no faith, when Jesus said "Blessed is the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven". Aren't poor people poor in spirit? Do they not lack hope? How then can a mega church look their members in the eye and do and say what they do with no one noticing this? It has to be reprobate, right? How else can someone who is hurting be told they lack faith or they wouldn't be hurting? It has to be a reprobate mind. The woman Jesus spoke about giving all the money she had to the temple was out of faith of being provided for, not a show of her abundance of faith.

If goats have overrun the church, why hasn't anyone noticed? Unless it is the goats that had the churches all along and it naturally attracts similar kinds to them. So the church, as we know it in the last 100 or so years, was never really the true church. No question about it. But Jesus said all things are possible with God, so those coming out of the church must be the sheep. Battered and bruised following the voice of the Shepherd. Thank you Pastor Rick for coming out of the church system so you could pastor His sheep until He comes again. Or did you think your days of being a Pastor were over? Not so. Just a change of venue. May God continue to lead you humbly towards home and continue to lead an unchurched people humbly headed in the same direction. To God be the Glory!

Cherie c.

Shannon said...

Psalm 127:1
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it...

You are putting undo pressure on us to perform. At what point do you determine we've worked hard enough to save souls? How do you determine what/when/how we are to do what you suggest we do to save souls?
Nowhere do we see anyone in Acts early church stepping out in front of the Lord to do His work for Him or "help" Him build His Church.
He built and is building His Church. He is the One Who added to the Church daily those who would believe and be saved.

Shannon

Cherie c. said...

Shannon, Dear Sister,

The crowns are where our works come into play.

1st Peter 5:2-4 says, "Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, watching over them - not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

The Bible teaches that there will be a "reward system" in Heaven. Do not live your life merely for rewards, but know that whatever hardships you may face in life, if you have accepted Jesus as the only one who can save you, have confessed that "Jesus is Lord," believe that he is risen from the dead, and ask God for forgiveness of your sins, you will enter Heaven. God makes it clear that if you do not, you will not enter Heaven.

The above is from the Bible and found on The Truth Ministries web site discussing the crowns believers will receive for the work we do in the Lord.

Also, faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead.

We are not building a church with hands, we are supposed to "preach the Gospel throughout the earth". In Acts when the Holy Spirit came upon them, many were filled with the Spirit and saved that day. Bible says you cannot be born again unless you are born of the Spirit. So in essence we are building a church with the foundation stone, and His Name is Jesus Christ.

We could sit on our salvation, but is that what the Lord would want us to do? If doing what Christ wants us to do for His Name sake is pressure, then we need to examine ourselves about how we see our role in Christ.

The Bible says when called upon to explain why we believe what we believe we better say the right thing. Yes pressure, but if we live as we ought, there is not pressure. Jesus said His burden is light. We tend to make it heavier, unnecessarily.

We will for sure be working in the Kingdom, and the crowns and rewards we receive will determine what our work will be. Did you know there is a crown just for rejoicing in the Lord? That is a great way to share your faith, rejoicing in it.

your sister in Christ Jesus,
Cherie c.

Anonymous said...

I've always cautioned myself and others to evaluate regularly, whether we are seeing people converted to Christ, or whether we are working to convert people to "church."

My spirit grieves over this very issue in the little congregation I havew been meeting with. Some pretty surely born again saints mixed up with many nice but unregenerate lost people doing church for various self-gratifying reasons.

Shannon: yes, the Holy Spirit convicts, revealsJesus, and regenerates a person. Nevertheless, we are ambassadors of reconciliation, charged with preaching the gospel (Acts 2:38-39) and have received our Great Commission from Jesus Himself to make disciples. We labor together with the Lord toward the salvation of souls; much like a wife labors together with her husband in building their home and family.

Rick: I receive you as a true pastor, a shepherd after the Lord's own heart. Such seem quite rare these days. I thank my God foryou, and I pray for you.

Victoria

kelli said...

Proving one is of the Lord:
Deuteronomy 13:1
Chapter 13
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

We know the gate is narrow
into the kingdom:
Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate:for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

We are to preach the gospel to the unsaved.
We are to disciple one that is saved because the lost cannot understand the Word until after salvation (Acts 14:15,21, 1 Co 2:14, Eph 4:17-19, Romans 8:7)
The fruit of His Spirit is given "the faith" to born again believers. The Lord also tells us to stand against the methods and strategies of the devil. The devil and his disciples want us to "fight" and get us distracted by the world system. The spirit of anti-Christ not only opposes Jesus the Christ but opposes Him by taking His place.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give]an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
How many are being asked for the hope that is in us?

kelli said...

What we do in our flesh(self-motivated) will be burned up and those things by the faith of the Lord working through us will pass through the fire 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

michael said...

There are several things I would like to pose in here after reading the above comments.

First is the reality of "being".

We come into being and it takes the regeneration work of the Holy Spirit, a sanctifying work, a sanctification by the Holy Spirit, His "work", that transforms us from one state of being (old nature) to the only other state of being one can transform into (newness of Life in Christ). You are at least at a minimum of the old nature at your natural death.

Because of Adam, when I came into being I came into being with his fallen nature. Nothing good that I ever do in that state of being is acceptable to God no matter how it manifests or bears good fruits in this fallen world. There are many good and wonderful people burning in anguish gnashing their teeth right now in that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels all because they were not elected to receive the regeneration process, to be born again to New Life in Jesus Christ.

In Scripture Jesus makes some distinctions for us and I suppose it is because of this that we tend to argue what ifs and who is? Those distinctions of this "new" state of being made by Jesus should be self evident? He says new creatures produce fruits of that New Life thirty, sixty or a hundred fold which we learn is a true sign of a manifestation of the "fruits" of this new state of being, the "New Creature" in Christ state of being you must be born again into.

Continued

michael said...

Continuing:

What is implied here is some "new creatures" manifest old nature fruits 70 percent of the time or 40 percent of the time also? I know when I am manifesting my old nature it would be easy to conclude I am a goat!

The purpose of the Law it seems is twofold. One, for the old nature and that first state of being, it helps teach us, as a schoolmaster/Law of Righteousness, that first state of being, the old man and his fruits. Two, it then provides us a foundation and guidance through this fallen first state of being world we are born again out of yet sojourning through to see the fruits whether or not they are 30 or 60 or 100 percent New Creature fruits. Not only us but all New Creatures can taste your fruits and know pretty well whether they are New Creation or old creation fruits.

I suppose some will manifest 100 percent of the time New Creation fruits. I am not one of them. It seems the most the Law of Righteousness has done for me is help me see and realize just how bad I really am before God without giving me license to continue producing first state of being fruits! Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from me and you and our first state of being beings?

No one can birth themself a second time. That is impossible for man. What is impossible for man, which the Law of Righteousness reveals to us, is not impossible for God. We must be born again.

How does that come about being born again then? How is one born again if they cannot do it themself?

Well, hopefully there is no doubt in anyone's mind as to that? If so comment your doubts and I am sure Rick will bring forth as good an understanding of that process of being born again as me or any number of commentors in here can?

What I want to focus on though, having laid down that presupposition is this, we learn from Scripture we shall "know them" by their fruits.

The gift of Eternal Life is "knowing" the Only True God, who is unchanging and cannot equivocate. He is immutable, everlasting and without any shift of essence what so ever! He cannot lie. It is impossible for God to lie and so we can take great comfort that He also makes promises we can rely upon in this fallen world.

This gift of Eternal Life is also "knowing" Jesus Christ Whom He sent. Jesus also being God is immutable, everlasting and without any shift of essence what so ever!

Then there is the Holy Spirit who also is God immutable and and and.

We can know people that they are goats or sheep basis our own fruit production as new creatures ourselves. There is a kindredness of Spirit at work in them that we realize is at work in ourself as well! We shall know them by their fruits basis the fruits God the Father produces in our lives as a New Creature in Christ, see 1 Peter 5:10-11; the fruits Jesus produces in our lives as New Creatures, see Philippians 3:20-21 and the fruits the Holy Spirit produces in our lives, see Hebrews 9:14! What's that old saw, birds of a feather flock together! As we mature in Christ and begin bearing the fruit of the Spirit we can come to know others of that same fruit production!

We can know or at least we should be sufficiently trained enough to know good from evil, goats from sheep.

Is it possible to know the differences? Yes, I believe it is possible. Does everyone operate with discernment gifts? No accept that when they are humbly submitted to Godly authority they will be shepherded and guided into safety in Christ's House Whose House we are, that is if we are His Sheep on earth as in Heaven where many have made it too by death into His Life at their passing!

Marti said...

Marti: Thank you for this message. So many churches are like a business. Those with large congregations are deemed as "successful" and those that are not, as "failures."

Shannon said...

Wow! A lot of comments to sort through since I was last on here!
I don't have time right now to carefully read them as I have family here, but will....

Shannon

kelli said...

Michael
Galatians 5:22 the fruit is singular and not plural.
The evidence of one saved has His Spirit and is "born again."
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
This is evidence of one who is saved and IS bearing fruit.
The other three types of hearts (soils) will not endure to the end as there is only ONE out of the four type of soils that is saved.

michael said...

Kelli,

yes, that is correct. However, if you will go back and read what I wrote you see I make a clear distinction between both, that singular emphasis of the fruit of the Spirit, which I also make as you in response; and the variety of gifts, "fruits" that operate within the singular Body of Christ. There is a difference and I was applying my comments to make that distinction. Not everyone is to be an Eye of the Lord. Some parts of the body are more important than other parts as the Apostle says (1Cor. 12) and the glory seeking church has made the Eye more important while the Apostle tends to make the less honorable more important.

Thanks for highlighting that in any event because it is very important that we do understand in Galatians Paul makes clear the variety/fruits of the flesh and the singular "Fruit" of the Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace and and and.

kelli said...

Michael you said: There are many good and wonderful people burning in anguish gnashing their teeth right now in that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels all because they were not elected to receive the regeneration process, to be born again to New Life in Jesus Christ.
Can you elaborate on this please?

kelli said...

Michael you said:
Some parts of the body are more important than other parts as the Apostle says (1Cor. 12)


1 Corinthians 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Corinthians 12:15
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1 Corinthians 12:16
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1 Corinthians 12:17
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1 Corinthians 12:18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 12:19
And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1 Corinthians 12:20
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1 Corinthians 12:21
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1 Corinthians 12:22
Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1 Corinthians 12:23
And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1 Corinthians 12:24
For our comely parts have no need:but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1 Corinthians 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1 Corinthians 12:26
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1 Corinthians 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts:and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

michael said...

Kelli, sure.

I would ask to know you and your position about works righteousness and the five solas as they say?

When that happens I would begin looking at and unpacking these Scriptures:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

michael said...

Kelli, also can you explain why you posted those verses from 1 Cor. 12?

kelli said...

Michael you said: Some parts of the body are more important than other parts as the Apostle says (1Cor. 12)
The reason I posted the verses from 1 Corinthians 12:14-31 is a correction to your statement.

Michael you said: There are many good and wonderful people burning in anguish gnashing their teeth right now in that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels all because they were not elected to receive the regeneration process, to be born again to New Life in Jesus Christ.

Michael said:
When that happens I would begin looking at and unpacking these Scriptures:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

This is your explanation of your previous comment? You lost me Michael. Do not understand your explanations

michael said...

First Kelli go back to my request to you to give some background on you and something of your theology?

Second explain what it is being corrected in light of 1 Cor. 12:23-24?

I said "sure" but first before I give an explanation I want to get to know you better? So again you are right that I offered no explanation just that I'm willing too after coming to understand you better first?

kelli said...

Michael you said some parts are more important than other parts.
Is that a correct statement from you? Or did I misunderstand you?
If I misunderstood you, forgive me.
The Lord God has different parts within the Body of Christ whether it be a hand,foot,etc, and they are ALL important.

Just use the Word Michael as WE might believe certain things and be out of line with the Word of God. A teacher is one who gives an explanation and I am not understanding the verses you use and that is why I wanted you to elaborate.
Happy New Year :)

Cherie c. said...

Happy New Year Michael,

I am so happy to meet a brother in the Lord, and after reading your post and Kelli's I was hoping to see your explanation so I too could understand what you are saying.

I am concerned however that you insist on knowing someone's theology before you help one understand your post. Is this necessary?

I would like to understand what you mean by "a state of being". How I understood it is along the lines of an old nature (in the flesh and sin) and a new creation (born again) in Christ.

The Bible speaks to our nature as flesh, carnal minded, sinful nature. Saved is regenerated, Spirit filled, transformed. How does "being" come into play here? Does being mean alive? If so, we are already living in the flesh (alive, breathing etc), it is our spirits that are asleep before we come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. It is our spirits that come alive when we are born again because we were dead in sin (spiritually) and alive (spiritually) in Christ. We can only worship the Father in spirit and in truth. So sorry, dear brother, I don't understand and I look forward to you elaborating further. God bless.

Cherie c.

Chris Baumgart said...

Keith Green wrote a song about, Goats and Sheep... Is anyone familiar with it? Being selfish creatures separates us from God. With this selfishness operating in the church, we as a collective will continue to limp along or worse fall flat on our faces. Christ through his work and his words lays before us the distinction between serving self verses serving God. You must serve God first before you can serve others. Now many in today's Church believe they can not be regenerated to becoming completely sanctified (holy) - or operating in Christ-likeness 100 percent of the time in this life. This is false. Christ clearly teaches otherwise. He is our example. Deciet has crept in to the body to claim that we are under sins bondage until we die and leave the flesh. But Christ teaches that our sin comes from our heart and not the flesh. So what is the fruit born from living selfishly as a Christian, or like a goat? ...continued wickedness.... When I became a Christian 33 years ago, I was told that Christ broke my bondage to sin. Then along the way I was told that I would always be in bondage to sin in this life because of my flesh. These teachings continue confusing so many people that many become disillusioned and leave the church or are left struggling, suffering... Now that I have learned that walking in holiness is possible in this life through the righteousness of Christ and through faith I abide in His righteousness I am reassured and live with the evidence of Gods power to love as He. This Love along with faith continue to enlarge as I grow in Christ. And if I do stumble God has given me a way to get up and continue.

michael said...

Kelli,

well I was hoping you would open up to what you understand about "works" rightousness and 5 solas?

If you don't want to do that let me know and I move on from that point.

michael said...

Cherie, thank you for your comments.

Would it be alright to work this through with Kelli first as what you are asking may be dealt and you may be answered through that process?

Rick Frueh said...

The only works of righteousness are those the Spirit does through a surrendered believer. All righteousness comes through God and the new man, created in Christ Jesus, is Christ in us the hope of glory. He lives through us.

Paul said it was not him but Christ which lives inside him.

Anonymous said...

It’s not my job(?)
“But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, he is taken away in and for his perversity and iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.” Ezekiel 33:6 (AMP)
“The prophet (believer) is a watchman to the house of Israel. His business is to warn sinners of their misery and danger. He must warn the wicked to turn from their way, that they may live. If souls perish through his neglect of duty, he brings guilt upon himself. See what those have to answer for, who make excuses for sin, flatter sinners, and encourage them to believe they shall have peace, though they go on. How much wiser are men in their temporal than in their spiritual concerns! They set watchmen to guard their houses, and sentinels to warn of the enemies' approach, but where the everlasting happiness or misery of a soul is at stake, they are offended if ministers (believers) obey their Master's command, and give a faithful warning; they would rather perish, listening to smooth things.” Ezekiel 33:1-9 — Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
It is interesting to note that a significant portion of the commentary on this article reflects the spirit of antichrist. Given the infiltration approach the enemy often employs, it is not surprising. I am not accusing anyone of anything. We need the discernment of the Holy Spirit to recognize the true from the false Spirit of Jesus Christ. But when the Holy Spirit points out to us what people say in light of scripture, their affiliation stands out clearly. Any Christian who seeks discernment through the Holy Spirit will receive it. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit possess a different discernment, or none at all. That is one difference between the sheep and the goats. I disagree with anyone who professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ and denies any personal responsibility for pointing out error in those who lead God’s people, particularly when those leaders deny any need for their own accountability whatsoever – even to Jesus Himself.
Have we forgotten how utterly horrific hell will be, or do we deny scripture there too and pretend it does not exist, or that Jesus was only using a figure of speech when He warned about doing whatever it takes to keep from going there? People in places of authority within Christ’s Church are going there and taking thousands with them. Does Jesus tell us to stand by and just watch? That is exactly what many “Christians” did during the Jewish Holocaust.
“And whoever causes one of these little ones (these believers) who acknowledge and cleave to Me to stumble and sin, it would be better (more profitable and wholesome) for him if a [huge] millstone were hung about his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.” Mark 9:42 (AMP)
Robert

kelli said...

I am righteous because of Jesus, Michael. Jesus is my defense attorney and the prosecuting attorney is satan.
Why are you avoiding the explanations? I'm not the only one that is questioning and wanting you to elaborate.
Are you saying you are one of the elect? Is this where you are going with the five solas?
Michael, I follow Jesus.
Never mind Michael about your explanation.

Rick Frueh said...

Let us remember that the "five solas" are man made. And in the end every mouth will confess that Jesus is Lord, not the five solas.

michael said...

Kelli I apologize that it seems I have gotten on the defensive. That's not my intent so hopefully you'll accept it.

We were reading rick's article on goats and sheep. I offered something I thought helpful but apparently it isn't?

Looking at those verses about the "work" the Holy Spirit does bring out for me a clear understanding of "his" righteousness.

What do I learn from this? The Holy Spirit accomplishes three things.

There are people in this world that believe they going to heaven when they die based on their righteousness.

Righteousness come by hearing and believing the word of God spoken to man. It is god's grace and mercy alone that saves us declaring us innocent though guilty. By this obedience to the faith (a gift from god to us) god declares us "righteous".

Finally the Holy Spirit works with the god declared righteous to bring about the judgment written about there that third thing the Holy Spirit does.

So the explanation for all those good people who are in he'll is there in those verse from John.

kelli said...

Apology accepted Michael.
Yes, goats are those who are covering their own sins of their own self righteousness.
Agree with you that many think they are going to heaven and claim to know God. But Jesus said I never knew you. Matthew 7:23
Back to our discussion and the verses you used:
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
My understanding of these verses is Jesus is telling His disciples to not be troubled as I am not going to leave you as orphans.He is about to die, be buried, rise from the dead and then ascend up into heaven. Jesus is coming to them in His Spirit to indwell people. The whole context of the entire chapter is to not let your heart be troubled. The fullness of God will be with us and dwell in us for eternity.

Loddie Resnick said...

Rick,

Your comment “We are both children of the Most High God as well as miserable wretches” brought to mind Paul’s struggle with knowing the holiness of God and yet his failure to live up to that holiness. Listen to Paul’s words, “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! (Sound familiar?) Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” How is this deliverance brought about by Christ? Paul tells us in Roman’s 8, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”

A true believer should study to know Christ and his life. But when that knowledge is used for comparison instead of identification it will always lead to self-loathing and condemnation. That is because sin and death which dwells in our members is all about condemnation. Now the Lord can use that in a lost person to point them to Christ and their need for salvation. But nowhere in the NT does our Lord ever declare that his true born again children, created in his righteousness and holiness, indwelt by his Spirit and thus possessing the life of Christ within are still seen by him as miserable wretches. Christ came not to condemn but to save. Christ works in our lives by delivering us from self-loathing and condemnation and not into it.

No true child of God can rid themselves of sin by not sinning. That makes no more sense than someone who attempts to not breathe by holding ones breath. We may be able to hold our breath for a moment or two but we will eventually begin breathing again. The same is true with sin because sin derives it power over us when our focus is upon it. But God’s way of dealing with sin is to turn our focus to Christ.

Consider Hebrews 12, “let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us (how do we do this?), fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.” In Colossians 3 we are told to “Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature.” But we are instructed on how to do this in the immediate preceding verses of chapter 3. “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.” Sin is an earthly thing. If we set our hearts on sin to try and stop sinning we will only fail because our hearts are not focused on Christ. Here is the beauty and mystery of God at work in our lives. As we focus on who Christ is and his life that that is in us the power of sin is diminished and abated yet without being focused on sin.

How do we know if we have turned our focus away from Christ? We will enter into self-loathing and condemnation which will eventually spill out onto others. We begin to focus on their sins also and condemn them for not living up to the holiness and righteousness of God as we think they should. And Rick, this seems to be the tenor of your article when I continued to read through it.

Would not the sheep our Lord and given to you to shepherd be better served if you focused on Christ and his life in a true believer rather than focusing on sin and condemnation. Our Heavenly Father is glorified by the fruit of spirit that proceeds from the indwelling presence of Christ and not from the condemning of ourselves and others because of a fixation on sin. May the Lord quicken your heart and bring you to see that in Christ ONLY is true deliverance from sin and acceptance with God.

Your brother in Christ

Anonymous said...

What the Church offers today is mostly a mind numbing salve for the condemned on death row; they no longer fear what they are about to experience, but their destiny is unchanged.

shannon said...

The subject of "Can a Goat be a Sheep?" may be helped by looking at this conversation:

http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?182415-Matthew-22-13

The comment/explanation of who are the "called" may help in our discussion of Can a Goat be a Sheep?....
Shannon

michael said...

cherie c,

hope you come back to this post and see these answers to your questions posted above?

You asked: "...I am concerned however that you insist on knowing someone's theology before you help one understand your post. Is this necessary?"

From where I sit I think it wise to know who your friends and foes are up front. The line of inquiry from Kelli left me in doubt as to her position on some issues that are hot topics and hotly debated. I want to avoid any of that if possible.

So that is why I was seeking to know something about her understanding of salvation and who is doing what so that I can be saved. There are some who believe in monergism as I do and then there are some who believe in synergism/God plus me gets me saved, which I do not hold to that belief system. From first to last my salvation is a work of the Righteousness of God alone.

You write: "...I would like to understand what you mean by "a state of being". How I understood it is along the lines of an old nature (in the flesh and sin) and a new creation (born again) in Christ."

That's a fair understanding in my view.

You write and have questions: "...The Bible speaks to our nature as flesh, carnal minded, sinful nature. Saved is regenerated, Spirit filled, transformed. How does "being" come into play here?

"Being" is the beginning is what I mean. You began in God; you at that point had a beginning. The difference with you and those whose name is not found written in the book of Life is their beginning/being began at conception in the womb. Yours did not according to Ephesians 1.

Does being mean alive? Yes. Because your being began in God before the foundation of the world when you were born you were then on a trajectory to become born again.

If so, we are already living in the flesh (alive, breathing etc), it is our spirits that are asleep before we come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. Not exactly. According to Scripture we are four part beings. We are "flesh/sarx", we are "body/soma", we are "soul/psuche" and we are "spirit/pneuma". At conception our "spirit/pneuma" is dead because of Adam. When we are "born again" our spirit comes alive by being conjoined to Christ's Eternal Spirit/Pneuma according to Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13

It is our spirits that come alive when we are born again because we were dead in sin (spiritually) and alive (spiritually) in Christ. Yes, see explanation above.

We can only worship the Father in spirit and in truth. So sorry, dear brother, I don't understand and I look forward to you elaborating further. God bless."
Do you understand now or do you have more questions and further explanation?

kelli said...

Michael said: So that is why I was seeking to know something about her understanding of salvation and who is doing what so that I can be saved. There are some who believe in monergism as I do and then there are some who believe in synergism/God plus me gets me saved, which I do not hold to that belief system. From first to last my salvation is a work of the Righteousness of God alone.

Michael,
John 1:9 God enlightens EVERY person being born into the world. Enlightenment is NOT salvation.
In the parable of the Sower is there not a response from the four types of soils to the seed?

It is the work of God who saved me, Michael, but I had a response.Now that I am saved, I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 2:12-13
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation** with fear and trembling. FOR IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU to will and to do of [His] good pleasure.
**These are those who are already saved as salvation is to the believer. God is doing the work, but we have to make decisions based on God's Word, as we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.(Romans 12:2) In order to be transformed by the renewing of our minds we have to be in His Word.

kelli said...

Michael,
Studies that would benefit you and all those that have spiritual ears to hear.

http://www.masteringthebible.com/category/studies/ephesians/page/9

http://www.masteringthebible.com/category/studies/romans/page/8

michael said...

Kelli, what was your response that was needed to save you? Be straight with me. Are you monergistic or synergistic? Are you saying if you did not respond correctly you could not be saved by Jesus Christ?

kelli said...

Michael,
Do you not understand the parable of the sower? Actually the three other soils (hearts) RESPONSES were not genuine and fell away, not saved. Only one is saved out of the four types of soils, only one is a child born from out of God.
Without Him I cannot do one thing. I RECEIVED His Spirit Michael. So by RECEIVING Him does that mean I am synergistic?
But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them gave he power to become Sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I shared two links with several studies and have you listened to any of them,yet?

michael said...

Kelli,

you seem to me to be on edge or even have a chip on your shoulder?

Maybe you could start with that instead of all this gabbing you have been doing?

Each of your responses to me raises "doubt" and does not edify.

If there is something wrong come out straight and say so instead of shadow boxing being unclear not very precise.

What is it you don't understand that I have written above? Highlight what that is and then give your reason why it's wrong and we can go from there.

For the life of me I cannot understand how taking a response I gave to Cherie, highlight it and then quote from John 1:9 then go to Philippians and Romans and then post links to what seems to be some Christian University on mastering the Bible and teachings from Ephesians. I have been a study of the Word of God for about 40 years now and been schooled by several scholars and mentored by a few good men.

The only thing all this great learning has taught me now is just how little I really know, if that much.

Is there some affirmation you are looking for by giving your Biblical knowledge and understanding in here?

michael said...

Kelli,

As to your question about listening to the links, no. I tried opening them with my IPhone and computer and nothing on Ephesians came about.

shannon said...

Michael,

Try copy/pasting the link into the address bar. The page Kelli is speaking of opened up just fine for me.
The studies in Ephesians are awesome help for understanding the subject of Predestination. Grateful the Lord led me to listen to them.

Shannon

kelli said...

Michael,
I tried listening to the studies on my iPhone and I had no problem.
My problem with your post as you said: There are many good and wonderful people burning in anguish gnashing their teeth right now in that lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels all because they were not elected to receive the regeneration process, to be born again to New Life in Jesus Christ.
Well Michael if there are four types of heart responses of people,the Lord God has NOT left anyone out of receiving Him.But it is the response and condition of their hearts.
Sounds like neither one of us is being ministered by each others post so let us not respond to one another.

Shannon said...

Thank you Kelli for recommending listening to the Ephesians studies. I listened to Ephesians 2:19-22 entitled "We Are The Dwelling Of The Lord": http://www.masteringthebible.com/studies/ephesians-219-22

It is necessary to understand "Predestination". The study of Ephesians 1:5-6 is very helpful and a must hear. http://www.masteringthebible.com/studies/ephesians-15-6

Rick has posted Mastering the Bible website as a tool for learning the Word. This option is available to those wanting help with understanding of the Word. I highly recommend it as the Lord has allowed it for me and ministered to me through it.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

The Holy Spirit came to testify of Jesus Christ as The Way. One who is born from above of His Spirit becomes a follower of Jesus Christ as The Way. Many today are calling people into a particular belief system, labeling themselves as "christians", "baptists", "methodists", "calvinists", "arminianist", etc,
et al. Paul condemns this in Galatians, as many claimed to be followers of Apollos, etc. Why?
There is only One Church....the Church of which Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone. He is building His Church, not you or I or anyone else. This is those who are responding to the Light (His Spirit) convicting of sin and condemnation of which the wages are death, Romans 6:23.

Ephesians 2:19-22 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

The one born of His Spirit is one who has responded to the Light exposing and convicting of their sin which has separated them from God from birth. Jesus Christ indwells them in His Spirit at this point. These individuals together as a whole form the True Church, The Body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Chief Cornerstone of this Temple. The foundation stones are the prophets and apostles. All those born of His Spirit since then are added to this foundation.

shannon

michael said...

Kelli, with all due respect, I suppose you are free to not respond to my comments. I'll reserve the right to respond to any comments as I am led of the Spirit. In any event I assume all comments are cleared by the powers that have put moderation on in this comment box anyway.

It would be kind of you to at least state clearly that you are monergistic or synergistic?

I will step out on a limb here, Kelli and ask if you would share yours views about prevenient grace?

Cherie c. said...

Michael, kelli,

Doubtful disputations. Paul wrote about this.

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Michael, kelli's response is true according to the Word. Please note the following scripture.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

goes hand in hand with the following scripture:

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

They are not mutually exclusive as some try to make them. God draws us to Jesus, but we must accept and believe. This is a conscience action on our part.

To Chris Baumgart with regard to your post please note the following scriptures that too go hand in glove. In accordance to the scriptures brother in Christ, as a woman I do not preach to you, but as your sister in Christ I need to correct you using the Word of God the only Authority.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

While we are still in this flesh, we will sin. While God uses His chastisement to keep us from continuing in sin. If we then ignore Him and keep sinning that is a different story. Please see below.

Hebrews 12:7-9

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

This is clear indication that we are going to deal with sin until we are

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Key word here is incorruptible. But please see one more scripture that is so very important besides the one regarding not using our liberty for an occasion to sin:

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

The sin of which is spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 I believe is sin in which is more than just weakness. Willful sin is not the same as sin we do unknowingly. Once we know, we do have the Grace given to us to not fall into it again. Pastor Rick, please correct me if I am wrong. Example: False teachers know the truth but choose to do contrary which is sin. Disobedience is sin.

I pray the Lord lead you further in His Word in this area. God Bless.

Cherie c.

Cherie c. said...

Pastor Rick,

Hebrews 10:26 would make a great study. God Bless.

Cherie c.

shannon said...

"Shoehorning" definition: "Shoehorning" in a conversational context means to force someone to take one of a limited number of positions, neither of which may adequately express what the individual wants to say.

"Gnostic" definition: A gnostic is a person who believes that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge or gnosis. One who believes they've attained "higher" knowledge than the rest of believers.

Arminian: Synergistic, Prevenient Grace

Calvinist: Monergystic, Irresistable Grace

Denominations/sects are carnal. Divisions are man made and are of the flesh:
1 Corinthians 1:12,13 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided...?

1 Corinthians 3:1-
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one...

Robert said...

16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3.

Kelli, Cheri, Shannon, you are "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth". " Hold fast the faithful Word as you have been taught, that you may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince those who contradict." Titus 1:9

Jesus said that no man come come to Him, except the Father which sent Him, draws him...and there are more Scriptures than most Calvinists have fingers and toes that state that we must respond to that call by BELIEVING on the Lord Jesus Christ, that we might be saved!

Stand firm,

Robert

Cherie c. said...

Thanks Robert, Keeping it in the Word, the only Authority. God Bless my brother in Christ Jesus.


To All with Love (charity)

1 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

michael said...

So, Cherie, let me ask you. Have I covered your questions with my responses?

For the record, I am neither a Calvinist or Arminian in faith and practice.

Cherie c. said...

Michael, I have a basic understanding of what you were trying to get across, but I don't know if I agree with it. It doesn't sit right with me, but there is where I must take it to prayer and seek the Scriptures to see if it lines up with the Word of God. So far I don't think it does.

As for what you are, I thought you were a child of God. I am neither a denomination nor do I follow anyone but the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do however now come to this blog for Pastor's teaching and then go to Scripture and prayer.

I also was glad to see you apologize to kelli, and then you attacked her again. Did you forget that we are to edify one another? Did you forget to correct your sister with love? Is your view so important that it was worth being unkind? I don't think any of our views is worth hurting a brother or sister so we can be right. We as children of God really need to think about this.

Disagreements are going to happen. It happened in the Bible between Paul and Barnabas. They parted ways with this disagreement between them, but I am certain that they kept each other in prayer before the Lord.

I am praying for you and kelli, and I hope that you both forgive each other and move on. The point of the matter is we were all goats at one time and the God chose to draw us to His Son and in some way even you had to accept Him. That is an action on your part. We all have to be active for Christ. Pure and Productive, but watchful as well.

May God Bless you and bring you and all of us to a deeper understanding, but most importantly to a deeper relationship with Him.

We are in this flesh and will struggle until we see Him and He changes us.

Loving you all with the Love of Jesus,

Cherie c.

michael said...

Cherie, attacked Kelli????

Ok, please cut and paste or reproduce what you believe was an attack?

Also show me where what I've written is unscriptural and doesn't sit right with you?

Thanks
Michael

Cherie c. said...

Part 1
Michael, as per your request:

Accusatory and argumentative not to mention unkind.

Michael you wrote:
Kelli,

you seem to me to be on edge or even have a chip on your shoulder? (accusatory, argumentative and unkind)

Maybe you could start with that instead of all this gabbing you have been doing? (unkind)

Each of your responses to me raises "doubt" and does not edify. (accusatory, argumentative)

If there is something wrong come out straight and say so instead of shadow boxing being unclear not very precise. (she has come straight out using scripture)

What is it you don't understand that I have written above? Highlight what that is and then give your reason why it's wrong and we can go from there. (baiting, she did this already using scripture, but you refuse to accept this as her answer)

For the life of me I cannot understand how taking a response I gave to Cherie, highlight it and then quote from John 1:9 then go to Philippians and Romans and then post links to what seems to be some Christian University on mastering the Bible and teachings from Ephesians. I have been a study of the Word of God for about 40 years now and been schooled by several scholars and mentored by a few good men. (all your studying does not seem to come with Love (charity) which we are called to have, especially for one another)

The only thing all this great learning has taught me now is just how little I really know, if that much. (you can know the Bible cover to cover and if you do not have love, it means nothing, you are right. So why be unkind?)

Is there some affirmation you are looking for by giving your Biblical knowledge and understanding in here?
and computer and nothing on Ephesians came about. (again, baiting, argumentative, and unkind)

sorry, Ihave to respond in two posts.

Cherie c.

Cherie c. said...

Part 2
Baiting and taunting:

Kelli, with all due respect, I suppose you are free to not respond to my comments. I'll reserve the right to respond to any comments as I am led of the Spirit. In any event I assume all comments are cleared by the powers that have put moderation on in this comment box anyway. (being led by the Spirit is fine, but what Spirit would make you unkind? Certainly not the Holy Spirit.)

It would be kind of you to at least state clearly that you are monergistic or synergistic? (you have no place to demand her to state anything of the sort. very unkind in attitude)

I will step out on a limb here, Kelli and ask if you would share yours views about prevenient grace? (you have gone to far where you do not stop with your unreasonable requests, again baiting, argumentative and unkind)

Your tone is less than brotherly. You can quote the Bible all you want, but if your response is in this manner it is not of God. Forcing your views us unbiblical. (see Acts 15) How can you ask me what have you said that is unscriptural? Nothing I guess if you are referring to Bible quotes, but you're not reasoning as the Bible calls for, you are being harsh, and that is unscriptural. You do remember apologizing to her don't you? Then your next two posts were mean spirited. Please reread your posts and repent. I am sure kelli has forgotten by now and has forgiven, but please do not continue to call people out because they do not agree with you or decide not to post back to keep contention going. Her lack of responding could be for any number of reasons including the desire to please God and not continue an argument.

I am sure that you will see what I am saying when you reread your posts, I hope. I do not want to argue with you and this is the last I will post on this. You asked me to point out what comments were unkind and attacking and I did. Just to let you know, I do not know kelli except for the few posts we have exchanged on this blog so please do not accuse me of ganging up on you. Also, I responded to your question regarding your answer to my question and I answered with sisterly love and in accordance with the Authority of the Word of God. I weighed your response to kelli with God's Word that is how I answered you. I do not hold any ill will towards you. I wish you peace and I will lift you up in prayer.

Cherie c.

Anonymous said...

While I concede that there is truth in "Calvinism", and that great thinkers have coined extra-biblical words to describe certain concepts, which words can be helpful in some contexts, I remain convinced that it is BEST to stick to biblical words and language when discussing biblical things and issues and concepts. I believe that Scripture is inspired--therefore that God chose certain exact WORDS in His revelation to mankind, therefore we can be content with those words (translated carefully) and should not rely too much on bringing extra-biblical words to our doctrine.

Election is true,but it is not the grid upon which we must force all other scriptural revelation and doctrine. (Hyper-calvinism is a more historically recent aberration which does this.) Human cooperation is also a concept addressed in scripture, in Jesus' own words, and in the apostle's else why would he admonish us to "not frustrate the grace of God"?

The Scriptures contain many tensions and seeming contradictions to human reason. Some things are both "already" and "not yet." It is by the Spirit in our spirits that we "understand"--better word: "apprehend" the things of God.

I avoid using man-made words when I can, words like monergism, prevenient grace, etc. One can discuss the Faith without them--God does! I don't look to the five "Solas" as such. Actually, to do so is to give them deuterocanonical status, in my opinion. There is truth in them, but they are not "The Whole Truth." So if I am to dialogue with Michael, it's useful for me to know that he identifies himself as monergist and that he wants to know my "check-off box" of soteriology according to an artificial and narrow choice of opposing simplicities. I'm not sure I could answer definitively according to his categories. Yes, it is all God's initiative and grace, yet maybe we CAN resist grace? Those categories don't encompass the full teaching of Scripture. We're nowhere commanded to be monergists nor synergists; but we ARE commanded to obey the revelation we have been given. All men everywhere are commanded to repent. We are commanded to OBEY the Gospel.

I understand that by not holding to the five "Solas" or not choosing a category of calvinist or arminian, that some who do would consider me not a true saint or would call me a heretic or would refuse to talk with me. That grieves me.

I sincerely want to love the brethren and conform with the scripture that "the goal of our instruction is Love from a pure heart and a sincere faith and a good conscience."

Humbly submitted for everyone's consideration by,
Victoria

shannon said...

Refusing to talk to you may be the testimony of Christ Jesus, Victoria.
Are they rejecting the Light in you? John 3:19

Remember they hated Jesus first, John 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you."

Shannon

michael said...

Victoria

Thanks for that.

Let's be clear about my faith and practice then.

It is entirely my fault getting off on the wrong foot here bringing up those "doctrines". By asking them was simply to know where others are so as to avoid the tar pits of debate that God has allowed Satan to use to divide the brethren.

At the end of the day Satan is defeated after this that the Apostle wrote is going to come to pass: Eph. 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known[fn] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Here are two things that make up part of the foundation of Christ in my spirit and soul.

This one the Lord put upon my spirit to pen many years ago: "Grace, as defined is What God Gives us that we don’t deserve.
Mercy, as defined is What God does not give us that we do deserve.
Peace is the outcome of both Grace and Mercy from God in our daily lives.

What about Jesus, what did He get and did not get??

Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was given, so hence, He was shown no Grace.
Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was not given, so hence, He was shown no Mercy.
Therefore Jesus was deprived of Peace from God."

That's the greatness of the Love of Christ for His Bride!

This one I recently came to know maybe six to ten years ago and makes me more grateful to Cherie C for taking the time to parse out my words: "MARTIN LUTHER quote,

FOR IF I DID NOT HAVE THE WELFARE OF MY BROTHER AT HEART

I WOULD CERTAINLY BE QUIET AND LET HIM GO

BUT THE FACT THAT I OPEN MY MOUTH AND REBUKE HIM IS AN INDICATION THAT I LOVE HIM AND SEEK HIS WELFARE

FOR MY FAILURE TO INSTRUCT AND REBUKE MY BROTHER IS ACTUALLY AN EVIDENCE OF ANGER".

So, my founding Pastor taught that first thing the Holy Spirit does establishing newborn Christians is lay into their deepest part that Eternal Living Cornerstone Jesus Christ. Christ then reveals and continues to reveal to this Christian the Love of God. Our Heavenly Father then pours forth of His Love into our hearts His vision for Life and Godliness. This vision when alive in our spirit brings us peace and the desire for True spiritual fellowship with those of the same Spirit. After that all hell breaks loose upon us to keep us humble and dependent upon the Lord's steadfast daily love.

1 Chron.16:34 Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever!
35 Say also: "Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather and deliver us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise.

That is what distinguishes us from those of the world's spirit.

Ok, enough of that now I what to respond directly to Cherie's comments above, hopefully today and soon?

michael said...

Cherie,

here is my response to yours above.

It will be broken up into several posts:

Michael, as per your request:

Accusatory and argumentative not to mention unkind.

Michael you wrote:
Kelli,

you seem to me to be on edge or even have a chip on your shoulder? (accusatory, argumentative and unkind) Do you see the word “seem” in my question? I am not sure how you can say I am being accusatory? I was concerned and was wondering if something was wrong.

Maybe you could start with that instead of all this gabbing you have been doing? (unkind) The word was jabbing not gabbing and ok, maybe that was unkind. If she took it as unkind I apologize. I obvious have offended you and so let me apologize to you personally too.

Each of your responses to me raises "doubt" and does not edify. (accusatory, argumentative) Again Cherie I must not be as sensitive as you or Kelli because I don’t see that as accusatory or argumentative. Maybe you can help me understand what is accusatory by saying I am having a doubt about the peace coming from her responses. I am looking to understand what the fault is here so asking the question seems to me to be more in line with edify and not argumentative. I am concerned that something is wrong between us and am looking to find a way to mend what I am perceiving is wrong or strained between us.

michael said...

If there is something wrong come out straight and say so instead of shadow boxing being unclear not very precise. (she has come straight out using scripture) Obviously I didn’t take it that way that is why I was looking further. If I missed it then again I apologize to Kelli for believing something that wasn’t true. Obviously that has offended you also so let my personally apologize to you, too.

What is it you don't understand that I have written above? Highlight what that is and then give your reason why it's wrong and we can go from there. (baiting, she did this already using scripture, but you refuse to accept this as her answer) I am not sure what that term “baiting” means in this context. I fish and I use bait, baiting the hook. I don’t believe I have refused anything Kelli has said. If I have refused something go ahead and show me. I am not perfect and reproofs of instruction are the way of life.

For the life of me I cannot understand how taking a response I gave to Cherie, highlight it and then quote from John 1:9 then go to Philippians and Romans and then post links to what seems to be some Christian University on mastering the Bible and teachings from Ephesians. I have been a study of the Word of God for about 40 years now and been schooled by several scholars and mentored by a few good men. (all your studying does not seem to come with Love (charity) which we are called to have, especially for one another) Can’t argue that point about “all your studying does not seem to come with Love” seeing I don’t have a basis for that. I do want to at this time open up my understanding of God’s love and man’s for you so you can judge it and if you think something is not scriptural you can address it, ok?
I love God’s Word. He has put a deep desire in my spirit to study it. And so I have for many years. As I have come to study God’s Word I discovered that looking behind the “english” word to see the Hebrew or Greek word and meaning has open up my ignorance to a lot of the meaning of God’s heart. One of those discoveries is on this subject of God’s love and man’s.
I am sure you are as adept at this as I. First let’s see if we agree that God’s love is different than man’s and man does not have it within himself to love God without God first loving man? As you must know, we read these words in 1 John:
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

michael said...

Here we learn that the love of God God wants us to know and understand is a love He has first loved us with. Second, and parenthetically here is where I am both a monergist and synergist, once I have been born again and baptized into Christ’s death by water and Spirit batptism I am now suppose to love one another with this Love of God He has loved me with “first”. He first loved me so I then, second, can love Him and others back with His love not mine.

This Truth is best understood, I discovered when I was studying John 21 and the Greek of that chapter. I discovered something that I then afterwards searched out both the book of Acts and 1 and 2 Peter to confirm what I discovered in that study.

When you read chapter 21 you see something. Jesus, far younger than most if not all of those men calls them “children”.

Then after breakfast Jesus asked Peter “three” questions yet Peter only answered with “one” answer! Look at each question, question number one is verse 15, 2 is 16 and 3 is 17. The first question deals with “lambs”. The second question deals with sheep. The third question deals with sheep on Peter’s terms.
Each time Peter answers affirmatively that he loves/phileō Jesus.
But notice the first question Jesus asks is Peter do you love/agapaō Me, “feed” my Lambs. That word “feed” is: boskō in the Greek.
Peter answers he loves/phileo’s Jesus.

Jesus then asks Peter a second question. Notice that He uses the same word “love/agapao” but changes two other words. The word “feed” in verse 16 in the Greek is: poimainō not bosko. Also notice Jesus asks Peter to poimaino/feed “sheep” not “lambs” as in the first question.

Finally the third question Jesus asks if Peter loves/phileo’s Him and Peter again answer the same way as the other two times that he loves/phileo’s Jesus but this time he shows some annoyance. Also notice that Jesus changes the word “feed” back to bosko but keeps the word “sheep” the same as question two.

Once I saw all that I immediately was led by the Spirit to look at every other occurrence where Peter uses the word “love” in the book of Acts or his epistles and not once does Peter ever again use the word “phileo”/love.

I asked the Lord about that and what I believe His response was is after Peter received the “love” of God by the work of the Spirit his understanding was opened to loving spiritually the brethren not carnally.
Since that discovery and that revelation from the Lord about His Love working in and through Peter I have made it my utmost effort to love the brethren not with phileo love but agapao love so that is why I am surprised here today to be having this dialogue with you, Cherie!
It is a wake up call to me that I must remain as vigilant as ever more so not than before lest I get full of pride thinking I got that one down!

Apparently from your point of view and others, I haven’t and saddens me. Thank you for taking the time to address those matters of concern to you bit by bit.

michael said...

Now back to address the next bit by you:






The only thing all this great learning has taught me now is just how little I really know, if that much. (you can know the Bible cover to cover and if you do not have love, it means nothing, you are right. So why be unkind?) I can’t argue with that just accept that I did not measure to the Love of God in here and do repent and express again my personal apology to you for offending you. In no way am I intentionally trying to be unkind.

Is there some affirmation you are looking for by giving your Biblical knowledge and understanding in here?
and computer and nothing on Ephesians came about. (again, baiting, argumentative, and unkind) Yet again I have to wait and see what the context is you are using with that word “baiting”. I don’t mean to be argumentative or unkind if I again apologize for that!

sorry, Ihave to respond in two posts.

Cherie c.
10:46 PM
Cherie c. said...
Part 2
Baiting and taunting:

Kelli, with all due respect, I suppose you are free to not respond to my comments. I'll reserve the right to respond to any comments as I am led of the Spirit. In any event I assume all comments are cleared by the powers that have put moderation on in this comment box anyway. (being led by the Spirit is fine, but what Spirit would make you unkind? Certainly not the Holy Spirit.) Well again, nowhere to hide. If I was being unkind, I apologize because as you say rightly the Holy Spirit is not unkind.

It would be kind of you to at least state clearly that you are monergistic or synergistic? (you have no place to demand her to state anything of the sort. very unkind in attitude) Here is what troubles me with this one Cherie and maybe you might now be getting a bit hot under the collar? I just don’t see in my words where I was “demanding”. I was making a request and a fair one at that. As I responded above to Victoria and it seems she understood I want to avoid the tar pits of doctrinal debates that some go to and at times being very unkind, ironically, when they don’t believe the way I do. I don’t approach it that way. As I said to Victoria I try to stay focused on the foundation which is Christ in me, too, the hope of Glory, and He has the task of revealing the Love of God to me and God the Father and Holy Spirit have the task of revealing the vision to me and once I have it I then can carry out that vision, a vision I keep bringing up from 1 Chronicles 16 by the way which was given to King David. I believe a lot of hostilities would cease among brethren if we were daily filled with inspiration to pray as King David sang “Let the heavens be glad, let the earth rejoice, let men say among the nations the “Lord reigns””!! So if you perceived I was demanding her to do something, which I don’t believe I was, again, let me apologize for that personally and I will be mindful of this as I go along making comments in here with you and others. My point about reserving the right was to distinguish between her right not to make comments while I was reserving the right to make comments as I was so led by the Spirit to do which I try to be prayerful and thoughtful before I go ahead and make a comment or two in the comboxes of blogs I visit on a daily basis.

michael said...

I will step out on a limb here, Kelli and ask if you would share yours views about prevenient grace? (you have gone to far where you do not stop with your unreasonable requests, again baiting, argumentative and unkind) Well again, I’m sorry for that perception as I just don’t see my request as unfair or unusual because it would be best to know the person better so as to not go into an area of discussion on a particular doctrine where there are obvious differences. It is not a sin to have differing views. None of us is perfect nor do we always agree with another’s point of view. I want to respect what is right in the sight of all men as the Scripture teaches and that was the basis for that line of inquiry.

Your tone is less than brotherly. You can quote the Bible all you want, but if your response is in this manner it is not of God. Forcing your views us unbiblical. (see Acts 15) How can you ask me what have you said that is unscriptural? Nothing I guess if you are referring to Bible quotes, but you're not reasoning as the Bible calls for, you are being harsh, and that is unscriptural. You do remember apologizing to her don't you? Then your next two posts were mean spirited. Please reread your posts and repent. I am sure kelli has forgotten by now and has forgiven, but please do not continue to call people out because they do not agree with you or decide not to post back to keep contention going. Her lack of responding could be for any number of reasons including the desire to please God and not continue an argument. Well Cherie I have reread the posts I just don’t see them as mean spirited. Sorry for the disagreement here. I would hope this isn’t a deal breaker and you choose not to make any further comments. I am truly open to correction.

I am sure that you will see what I am saying when you reread your posts, I hope. I do not want to argue with you and this is the last I will post on this. You asked me to point out what comments were unkind and attacking and I did. Just to let you know, I do not know kelli except for the few posts we have exchanged on this blog so please do not accuse me of ganging up on you. Also, I responded to your question regarding your answer to my question and I answered with sisterly love and in accordance with the Authority of the Word of God. I weighed your response to kelli with God's Word that is how I answered you. I do not hold any ill will towards you. I wish you peace and I will lift you up in prayer. Not in the least. I hope I never come to accusing anyone of anything for whatever reason? The Lord’s servant must not strive. And if there is correcting to be done the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father are very capable correctors using a donkey’s colt with one, fire and brimstone with another and hopefully for us just a still small voice as King David said, the Lord’s gentleness made him great!
Again, please accept my responses in the spirit I have come to give them which I hope are from the wisdom that comes only from His Spirit of Grace and Truth?

michael

michael said...

cherie,

I apology, I pasted your whole response to a word page and then added my responses in bold italics but when I posted the bold italics didn't show up. So please be patient as you read through that and hopefully you will be able to see where I make a comment after you???

michael

Cherie c. said...

Michael,

I said I wasn't going to respond, but I need too.

I chuckle at what you said about being hot under the collar, you may be right. I wrote that because your posts were unrelenting and yes dear brother, a bit demanding.

You seem to make everything so complicated when to me being monotheistic, synergistic??? really doesn't matter. We are always so caught up in correcting others that we sometimes go overboard. I am guilty of that too. You are blessing and a thorn, but God made you the way you are and will deal with you. As your sister in Christ I just have to love you with the love God graces us with. LOL, Have a good night brother. You know what is funny? In your effort to find out someones position in order not to have controversy, you made controversy. =D There is the humor you spoke about.

God Bless you,

Cherie c.

Cherie c. said...

to your question about baiting (a form of taunting):

As in trying to lure someone into an argument. Yes, like a worm on a hook is to a fish, lol, your words were baiting.

Cherie c.

Anonymous said...

Chris Baumgart: Yes, I am familiar! I was primarily influenced by Keith Green after being powerfully born again in 1980as a young adult. Oh, it makes me realize that over ensuing decades i have fallen from my first love, and feel like the woman in Song of Solomon searching through the streets and being abused by people out there while trying to find Him again.
Thank you for your post. I believe as you do. Also Loddie--encouraging and refocusing. Now to live it again....
I appreciate you brothers and sisters and your posts, and your prayers.
Victoria

Steve said...

Blessings, Rick, for this post. As so often, it's the exact encouragement I need to hear.

Especially the reminder that the Church needs to be called to repentance in love.

Thank you, brother.

In Jesus, Steve